Washing the film with soap

[yaacovk]

Hello.
Is it possible to use a kitchen "fairy" soap, for washing the film in the end of developing?
I saw in youtube one of the demonstration using with this soap, what can be the impact on the film?

Regards.

Yaacov.

 

[Photo Engineer]

It can leave dye and fragrance in and on the film. This is not good all of the time. It can also leave other products used to "soften" skin when used for washing dishes.

PE

 

[NB23]

Can it potentially strip the emulsion?

Probably not if the soap is completely washed out with clear water after for a few minutes... But that would completely kill the purpose of using soap. Which in turn answers the question: clear water is best.

 

[Photo Engineer]

It will not strip the emulsion unless it is a very alkaline soap.

Usually, final rinses are neutral in charge and pH. Some dish soaps are negatively charged. They act differently on films.

PE

 

[cliveh]

Hello.
Is it possible to use a kitchen "fairy" soap, for washing the film in the end of developing?
I saw in youtube one of the demonstration using with this soap, what can be the impact on the film?

Regards.

Yaacov.

Yes, but a very bad idea. Stick to running water.

 

[NickLimegrove]

Hello.
Is it possible to use a kitchen "fairy" soap, for washing the film in the end of developing?
I saw in youtube [!] one of the demonstration using with this soap, what can be the impact on the film?

Could you specify what's the problem you're trying to solve with that solution?

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Could you specify what's the problem you're trying to solve with that solution?

Dirty pictures?

 

[Sirius Glass]

Hello.
Is it possible to use a kitchen "fairy" soap, for washing the film in the end of developing?
I saw in youtube one of the demonstration using with this soap, what can be the impact on the film?

Regards.

Yaacov.

This is one of the worst ideas that I have heard in a while. After over 100 years of washing film in only water, why would one want to do otherwise?

 

[Cybertrash]

I think the OP might have seen one of those instructional videos wherein the person developing the film is using washing-up liquid instead of a wetting agent such as Ilfotol or Photoflo when rinsing the film. I've come across several sources that claim that the two are interchangeable.

 

[yaacovk]

Well, to all of those who ask why,
my default way is water but if it so convenient why there is hypo at all?
don't tell me that the companies want to make money...
i think the hypo process is to make sure that the cleaning will be compete.
my purpose of my question was to learn what can be the impact on the film if working with
materials not suitable to working with film.
thanks for your answers.

Yaacov.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Hello.
Is it possible to use a kitchen "fairy" soap, for washing the film in the end of developing?
I saw in youtube one of the demonstration using with this soap, what can be the impact on the film?

Regards.

Yaacov.

impact unknown;stay away from it if you care about your negatives.

 

[pdeeh]

my default way is water but if it so convenient why there is hypo at all?
...
i think the hypo process is to make sure that the cleaning will be compete.
.

I think you might be confused in your terminology.
"hypo" is an old but commonly used name for Sodium thiosulfate, which is a fixing agent.

I think you are talking about "HCA" which stands for "Hypo Clearing Agent", which is a solution which permits shorter washing times after fixing because it helps remove the remaining thiosulfates from the film or paper (either Sodium or Ammonium thiosulfates, the latter being what most if not all "rapid" fixers contain);

HCA can be used with film, but is most commonly used with fibre paper. There's no real need to us it with film

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Well, to all of those who ask why,
my default way is water but if it so convenient why there is hypo at all?
don't tell me that the companies want to make money...
i think the hypo process is to make sure that the cleaning will be compete.
my purpose of my question was to learn what can be the impact on the film if working with
materials not suitable to working with film.
thanks for your answers.

Yaacov.

All soap is not created equal. They are definitely not designed with photography in mind. There may or may not be byproducts in the soap that will have a negative effect on the film as it ages.

But... Why take a chance? Proper wetting agent that is designed for photography purposes is extremely inexpensive (compared to all of you other chemicals). There is absolutely zero reason to not use a Kodak, Ilford, Edwal, Sprint, or other type of dedicated photography wetting agent.



Hypo - that is something else entirely. Hypo you wash out with running water after the film is fixed, and is a different step in the process than where you would use a wetting agent.

Step 1 - Develop
Step 2 - Stop bath
Step 3 - Fixer
Step 4 - Wash the film under running water, in film washer, or in tank with water exchanges according to for example Ilford's recommendations. You may or may not use a hypo clearing agent at this step.
Step 5 - Use wetting agent (to try to eliminate drying marks on the film)
Step 6 - Hang to dry

 

[tkamiya]

Well, to all of those who ask why,
my default way is water but if it so convenient why there is hypo at all?
don't tell me that the companies want to make money...
i think the hypo process is to make sure that the cleaning will be compete.
my purpose of my question was to learn what can be the impact on the film if working with
materials not suitable to working with film.
thanks for your answers.

Yaacov.

HCA (I think that's what you mean) makes fixer more soluble in water, so it washes out easily.

If you use soap, it does nothing to the fixer, so it'll be just as hard to wash out. Fixer is not like dirt which sticks to the surface (which soap washes out partly by breaking the surface tension) but it's in the emulsion. In addition, one soap to next is completely different, and what exactly is in it is unknown to you (and us). So the end result is not predictable except for the same soap you used before.

It's your film, so you are free to experiment. I wouldn't do it. My experience is, if standard process and soak in clean water does not remove the contaminant, I can do far more damage by trying experimental method than the damage that was already there.

With little money company makes from HCA these days, I don't think they care if we buy them or not anymore.

 

[NB23]

Yaacov,
Hypo clear is great for FB paper. Film washes much easier then FB paper. 5-10 minutes and you're done.

 

[pentaxuser]

Hmm... I guess I should stop using Ajax and a scrub brush on my negatives, huh?

Well not if you want that old fashioned gritty look

pentaxuser

 

[Kirks518]

I'm by no means an expert or someone with years of experience, but... I've been using one drop of Dawn (aka Fairy in the UK) with distilled water for my final rinse. I was having major water spot problems before using it, but since I started I've had no issues. I've also noticed no ill-effects with the Dawn.

With that said, when I need to order some other stuff, I plan on getting a bottle of Photo-Flo.

 

[summicron1]

I'm by no means an expert or someone with years of experience, but... I've been using one drop of Dawn (aka Fairy in the UK) with distilled water for my final rinse. I was having major water spot problems before using it, but since I started I've had no issues. I've also noticed no ill-effects with the Dawn.

With that said, when I need to order some other stuff, I plan on getting a bottle of Photo-Flo.

Photo flo is designed for this, dishwashing soap is not.

And, I think you will find the soap costs more. I started using this bottle of photo-flo about 10 years ago, 3 or 4 drops at a time, and I'm still only halfway through.

So, OK, it's fun to speculate on alternatives, but unless you are living in a dystopian world where you have to craft your own film emulsion out of the silver dollars in your coin collection, I'd say use Photo-flo and be done with it.

 

[tkamiya]

I think PE had a discussion elsewhere on why not to use soap as a substitute for photoflo. He mentioned perfume, dye, and other chemicals being potential problems. He also mentioned while they both break surface tension, they are really not the same thing.

Maybe he'll chime in himself.

A bottle of photoflo will last a life time and lasts forever. It's really cheap.

 

[Dr Croubie]

HCA can be used with film, but is most commonly used with fibre paper. There's no real need to us it with film

No real need, but it doesn't hurt does it? I use HCA with Delta/Tmax films, because I get bored or distracted when I wash them and usually I don't wash for long enough and they go pink. So a tiny bit of HCA fixes that with no ill effects.
Usually after fix it's full rinse and dump, 5-10 inversions and dump, HCA for a minute and dump, 15 inversions and dump, 20 inversions and dump, then full with Ilfotol and dry. It's probably over and above the 10/15/20 inversion Ilford method with no HCA, which is fine with regular films, but I've found that still leaves me pink sometimes with T-grain films.

As to using regular dishsoap - no idea. Ilfotol / Photoflo are so damned cheap I don't see any point to save money unless you're in an emergency-run-out situation.

Unless of course you're going for that 'Lomo' look.
That reminds me, I was going to run a cartridge through a dishwasher cycle and then shoot it, see what comes out...

 

[Photo Engineer]

I think PE had a discussion elsewhere on why not to use soap as a substitute for photoflo. He mentioned perfume, dye, and other chemicals being potential problems. He also mentioned while they both break surface tension, they are really not the same thing.

Maybe he'll chime in himself.

A bottle of photoflo will last a life time and lasts forever. It's really cheap.

I already did!

PE

 

[pbromaghin]

I already did!

PE

Yes you did, and it was a real horror story.

 

[NB23]

No real need, but it doesn't hurt does it? I use HCA with Delta/Tmax films, because I get bored or distracted when I wash them and usually I don't wash for long enough and they go pink. So a tiny bit of HCA fixes that with no ill effects.
Usually after fix it's full rinse and dump, 5-10 inversions and dump, HCA for a minute and dump, 15 inversions and dump, 20 inversions and dump, then full with Ilfotol and dry. It's probably over and above the 10/15/20 inversion Ilford method with no HCA, which is fine with regular films, but I've found that still leaves me pink sometimes with T-grain films.

As to using regular dishsoap - no idea. Ilfotol / Photoflo are so damned cheap I don't see any point to save money unless you're in an emergency-run-out situation.

Unless of course you're going for that 'Lomo' look.
That reminds me, I was going to run a cartridge through a dishwasher cycle and then shoot it, see what comes out...

People want to absolutely get rid of that pink color but it's harmless. And it disappears over time all by itself. The Pink color is in no way an indicator.

TMax Pink and Stand development are two myths that need to be broken.

 

[Helinophoto]

I used to use a couple of drops, meant to avoid water-spouts on glass in the dishwasher-machine, when I washed my negatives with no ill effects for a good while.

Nowdays though, I actually use photo-flo, which is super-concentrated and a bottle can make several liters of working solution.

Needless to say then, if you're using 2-3 drops per development, one bottle of photo-flo, designed with film in mind, will last almost forever and is guaranteed not to harm your film at all.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Hello.
Is it possible to use a kitchen "fairy" soap, for washing the film in the end of developing?
I saw in youtube one of the demonstration using with this soap, what can be the impact on the film?

Regards.

Yaacov.

not a good idea. cleaning products contain all kinds of crap not always archival for film or paper.