Washing antihalation dye out of unexposed 35mm Tri-X

[dangeresque]

Good morning all,

I am experimenting with ways to replicate the blooming highlights look from HIE and IR820 Aura. In theory, is it possible to rinse out the antihalation dye from regular pan films such as 400TX and leave the base clear without damaging the emulsion? I have read on APUG and elsewhere of others doing this with 120 roll and sheet film. I tried soaking small pieces clipped from leaders in distilled water to see if any color would leech from the film, but no luck so far.

Thank you!

 

[Venchka]

I presoak all film prior to developing. I'm not alone. Most of the time the presoak water comes out some color-depending on the film. I don't get blooming highlights.

 

[dangeresque]

I presoak all film prior to developing. I'm not alone. Most of the time the presoak water comes out some color-depending on the film. I don't get blooming highlights.

Venchka, rather than a presoak prior to development (which I also do) I mean to wash and dry the film prior to exposure.

 

[bdial]

No particular reason you can't do that, if you have some dark place to dry the film. The likely reason that you don't see any color from a piece of leader is that it probably isn't enough film. Soak a roll, at least of Kodak, you will certainly get color in the water.

 

[Venchka]

Sorry. I missed the pre-exposure part. Seems like the best way to do that would with bulk film. Load a reel with film. Soak in distilled water with Photo-Flo. Drain. Shake as much water off as possible. Place in changing bag to dry. Load into cassette. Just thinking out loud.

 

[dangeresque]

No particular reason you can't do that, if you have some dark place to dry the film. The likely reason that you don't see any color from a piece of leader is that it probably isn't enough film. Soak a roll, at least of Kodak, you will certainly get color in the water.

I will do this tonight.

Sorry. I missed the pre-exposure part. Seems like the best way to do that would with bulk film. Load a reel with film. Soak in distilled water with Photo-Flo. Drain. Shake as much water off as possible. Place in changing bag to dry. Load into cassette. Just thinking out loud.

I was thinking along these lines as well.

Thank you both!

 

[DanielStone]

please post some "pre-soaked" and non-soaked "standard, straight from the box shots(identical if possible).

I'd like to try this with 4x5 TMY2... looks blue when I pour it out. Same with some more acros in QL I have, though that pours out almost black, black

-Dan

 

[Sirius Glass]

Good morning all,

I am experimenting with ways to replicate the blooming highlights look from HIE and IR820 Aura. In theory, is it possible to rinse out the antihalation dye from regular pan films such as 400TX and leave the base clear without damaging the emulsion? I have read on APUG and elsewhere of others doing this with 120 roll and sheet film. I tried soaking small pieces clipped from leaders in distilled water to see if any color would leech from the film, but no luck so far.

Thank you!

I think most are missing that you want to remove the antihalation dye before exposing. Hence, do it in the dark!

Steve

 

[Michael W]

I'll be interested to see the results as I've also been thinking about this. Don't expect to see any colour when you pour out the pre-soak water; I pre-soak 35mm quite often before developing & none of the films cause the colour you see with the same emulsions in medium and large formats. Must be a different type of anti-halation.

 

[dangeresque]

Update of sorts...

I loaded the film onto a Hewes reel and soaked it in 300 mL of distilled water with 1 mL of Photo-Flo in solution, all at 20 degrees for five minutes. It's drying in the dark right now; I will rewind it when dry and shoot it tomorrow, if time permits. If my first test is successful, I will do a side-by-side comparison over the weekend and share with the forum.

I'll be interested to see the results as I've also been thinking about this. Don't expect to see any colour when you pour out the pre-soak water; I pre-soak 35mm quite often before developing & none of the films cause the colour you see with the same emulsions in medium and large formats. Must be a different type of anti-halation.

I can contrive a couple of reasons why the AH dye in 35mm would be of a different type than in the other formats, but not why the manufacturer would select not to color it. Perhaps one of the resident experts could shed some light on why this is?

 

[David William White]

Excited to hear how it works. If you've the time & inclination, you might also try afixing tinfoil to your pressure plate.

 

[DanielStone]

Excited to hear how it works. If you've the time & inclination, you might also try afixing tinfoil to your pressure plate.

I'm going to try this! I'd imagine shooting a head and shoulders portrait with some catchy lighting would make this look really cool!

-Dan

 

[Ken Nadvornick]

You might try performing your pre-exposure, AH-removing presoaks in a mildly alkaline solution of water, followed by a thorough washing and final rinse in distilled (for clean-drying purposes). Depending on the film, when I darkroom process I see AH dyes come out in two places. My developer and my hypo clearing agent. Both of these are alkaline solutions containing sodium sulfite. My home-brewed D-76 variant is 100g per liter and my HCA is 20g per liter. I don't do plain water presoaks.

The disclaimer? I've never tried this myself, so I have no first-hand knowledge of how an alkaline solution presoak might affect the performance of unexposed film. (But I've been meaning to try it.) So that said, YMMV...

Ken

 

[pgomena]

Hmm, at what point do you stop removing anti-halation dyes and start removing color sensitizing dyes and other important things? I suppose it's an experiment, so, what the heck.

The idea of tinfoil on the film pressure plate has merit. I have an old Graflex Ciro 35mm that has a shiny silver pressure plate. I think it adds a tiny bit of glow to specular highlights.

Peter Gomena

 

[Soeren]

I'll be interested to see the results as I've also been thinking about this. Don't expect to see any colour when you pour out the pre-soak water; I pre-soak 35mm quite often before developing & none of the films cause the colour you see with the same emulsions in medium and large formats. Must be a different type of anti-halation.

Hmm I use a 5 min presoak for all films in my Jobo and at least APX 100, Delta 100 and Neopan 400 and 1600 all colors the water used. In fact the Neopan 1600 colors all baths from presoak to final rinse :confused:
What I find interesting is the different colors you get from the digfferent films e.g Neopan 400 and Neopan 1600, first is dark blue IIRC and the latter is light pink. One I developed, don't recall which, was almost black.
Hmm Wouldn't there be some sense in buy bulkrolls and load yourself too? Or well, can you even get Tri-X in 35m rolls?
Best regards

 

[dangeresque]

Excited to hear how it works. If you've the time & inclination, you might also try afixing tinfoil to your pressure plate.

I have, so I may just do that!

You might try performing your pre-exposure, AH-removing presoaks in a mildly alkaline solution of water, followed by a thorough washing and final rinse in distilled (for clean-drying purposes). Depending on the film, when I darkroom process I see AH dyes come out in two places. My developer and my hypo clearing agent. Both of these are alkaline solutions containing sodium sulfite. My home-brewed D-76 variant is 100g per liter and my HCA is 20g per liter. I don't do plain water presoaks.

The disclaimer? I've never tried this myself, so I have no first-hand knowledge of how an alkaline solution presoak might affect the performance of unexposed film. (But I've been meaning to try it.) So that said, YMMV...

Ken

I considered this. I don't have any sulfite handy, but for the second attempt, I will see if I can acquire some.

Hmm, at what point do you stop removing anti-halation dyes and start removing color sensitizing dyes and other important things? I suppose it's an experiment, so, what the heck.

Exactly!

 

[greybeard]

If you don't see much of an effect after prewashing Tri-X, you might check into some of the off-brand films; Plus-X and Tri-X at least used to have a grey base, and I believe that FP4 does as well. This is intended to reduce halation, and might make possible the use of less (or different) antihalation dye on the back. The old Kodak Fine Grain Release Positive was on clear base with no antihalation dye layer (it was meant for printing motion picture negative film) and it gave a definitely different "look" when used as a (very slow) camera film.