Was there ever a wide-angle 120 6x6 or 6x9 folder back in the golden age?

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Steve Goldstein

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I know about the modern Bessa 667W (55mm, 6x6/6x7 on 120 film), the Plaubel/Brooks Veriwide, the Rolleiwide, and of course the Hasselblad SWC, but were there any wide angle folders that wouldn't cost an arm and a leg today? I'm thinking 50-60mm for 6x6 or around 80mm for 6x9. The Lomo LC-A 120 with its 38mm lens is too wide for my tastes, and the others I mentioned aren't really compact and are way too expensive for something I might use once every few years.
 
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OAPOli

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I think that a folding mechanism would be unnecessary for short lenses.

Other cameras I can think of are the GS645W (45mm, 6x4.5), the Horseman convertible (65mm, 6x7 and 9) and the Plaubel Makina W67 (55mm, 6x7, costs an arm).
 

MTGseattle

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I did a pretty lackadaisical job of searching, but it looks like the usual suspects in the Zeiss icon lineup are out. Or maybe the Ziess Ikon Nettar 515? (6x9 with a 7,5 cm lens) I'm not sure if its 120 or 620 film?
 

ntenny

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I did a pretty lackadaisical job of searching, but it looks like the usual suspects in the Zeiss icon lineup are out. Or maybe the Ziess Ikon Nettar 515? (6x9 with a 7,5 cm lens) I'm not sure if its 120 or 620 film?

I think that’s probably a typo or an unclear list. The 6x9 would be the Nettar 515/2, which afaik always has a 10.5 cm lens; a plain Nettar 515 would be a 645 camera (with a 7.5 cm lens).

-NT
 

MattKing

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Did any of the folders designed to shoot more than one frame size - 6x4.5, 6x6 and 6x9 - have a shorter lens?
 

Dan Fromm

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Short answer, AFAIK there were no wide angle roll film folders before modern times. The VM mentions the Envoy Wide Angle Camera, 2.25" x 3.25" with a 64/6.5 TTH lens and refers to an ad in the 1926 BJA. The date seems suspect, could be a typo.

The #12 Premo, also a 2x3 camera, came with an 85/6.3 Tessar. I've harvested two of them, both in B&L Compound shutters, from Premo 12s. This is the shortest lens I'm aware of, besides the Envoy's 64/6.5 TTH, for a pre-WWII 2x3 camera.
 

Dan Fromm

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Did any of the folders designed to shoot more than one frame size - 6x4.5, 6x6 and 6x9 - have a shorter lens?

Matt, I believe that they all have fixed lenses. Making interchangeable lenses work on a pocketable folder is, um, a little challenging. It has been done with Kodak Retinas., using convertible lenses with interchangeable front cells.
 

MattKing

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Matt, I believe that they all have fixed lenses. Making interchangeable lenses work on a pocketable folder is, um, a little challenging. It has been done with Kodak Retinas., using convertible lenses with interchangeable front cells.

I understood that Dan.
I was just wondering if any of those cameras had lenses that prioritized filling the smaller frame, and would therefore serve as moderate wide angles for the larger frame(s).
I was curious about the question, and thought that Certo6's website might have some info - no luck though.
 

JPD

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Some ICA Icarette II 6x9 cameras have 90 mm lenses like the double-Gauss Hekla and the Dagor-like Maximar and Zeiss Amatar. They are wider normal lenses rather than wide angles, and you can also find these cameras with longer normals, 120 mm.
 

Dan Fromm

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I know about the modern Bessa 667W (55mm, 6x6/6x7 on 120 film), the Plaubel/Brooks Veriwide, the Rolleiwide, and of course the Hasselblad SWC, but were there any wide angle folders that wouldn't cost an arm and a leg today? I'm thinking 50-60mm for 6x6 or around 80mm for 6x9. The Lomo LC-A 120 with its 38mm lens is too wide for my tastes, and the others I mentioned aren't really compact and are way too expensive for something I might use once every few years.

Steve, the folder of your dreams is the humble Century Graphic. If you want 6x9 (a poor metric approximation to 2.25" x 3.25") the 80 WF Ektar works well on mine. If you want 6x6 (a poor metric approximation to 2.25" x 2.25") 58/5.6 and 60/5.6 Koni Hexanon/Omegon lenses work well on mine on 2x3 so will work well on 6x6.

Note that the 58 will fit a Copal #0; the 60 won't, it wants a cock-and-shoot #0.

The lenses I mentioned will all focus to infinity on a 2x3 Pacemaker Speed Graphic. 2x3 Speeds and Crowns cost a bit more than Centuries.

Not compact, but relatively cheap and cheerful. They'll do what you said you want and much much more.
 

Dustin McAmera

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I got a 65mm Angulon for my Century Graphic, and it covers the 6x9 format ok; about like a 28mm on 35mm. It's not as much fun as it should be because the lens sits at an awkward place on the rails (so I can't set a pair of infinity stops for it). I have only used it field-camera style with the ground glass, but it wouldn't be a lot of work to make it a focus scale.

Especially once you have a film back on it, it's definitely handbaggable rather than pocketable.
 

Alex Varas

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Plaubel Makina IIS and later models are 6x9 cameras and have a Orthometar 73mm f/6.8 lenses as wide option. You need the viewfinder adapter for a correct composition if you intend to use it handheld, otherwise ground glass in a tripod.
 

Donald Qualls

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Did any of the folders designed to shoot more than one frame size - 6x4.5, 6x6 and 6x9 - have a shorter lens?

Not that I've seen. I have a number of dual-format folders and all have a lens within the "normal" range for the larger frame (which gives a good portrait length for the 6x9/6x4.5 models).
 

Alex Varas

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Did any of the folders designed to shoot more than one frame size - 6x4.5, 6x6 and 6x9 - have a shorter lens?

You can have this with manual counter Rada film back used in Plaubel Makina cameras, you should use a hand made viewfinder mask for smaller format than 6x9, the mask for the film folder usually comes in the sets that are sold with the original box and they weren’t lost over the years.
 

Lachlan Young

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Short answer: no.

By the time that Bertele's Aviogon/ Biogon appears, it was (I'd suggest) rather obvious that the stamped and pressed metal assemblies of the average folding camera of that era were not up to the precision required - and more importantly, the market segment that was buying Biogons was not in the market for amateur oriented folding cameras. Things had changed dramatically by the time the Plaubel Makina and Fuji GS645 appeared more than a generation later.
 

MTGseattle

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I agree, I did some more looking, and I think the 2 Ziess options I saw were not 6x9 cameras, and the sellers were just moving improper information around.
 

blee1996

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Argus Super Seventy-Five, is a 6x6 camera with semi-wide 65mm Lumar lens. Despite the name, the lens is indeed 65mm focal length.

It is a bit of curve ball, since the Argus is not a folder but a box camera. In addition, it used 620 instead of 120 film. But it is a true semi-wide angle fixed lens medium format camera that is very portable.

I had high hope (Argus 40 was excellent) and tried one, but the optical quality is questionable. It is a bit like glass lens Holga, can be reasonably sharp in the middle but never gets sharp in the edges no matter which aperture setting. Maybe my sample has misaligned lens elements: to reduce costs, the front elements and back elements are mounted separately and there are lots of tolerance play.

Here is a review by someone else:
 

Ian Grant

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The 1933 Plaubel Makina II has interchangeable lenses 10c standard, 21cm tele, & a 7.3cm wide angle. While technically a plate camera, Plaubel made Rada roll film backs, and advertised one for the Makina II with automatic numerations. So more practical than the folders with red windows.

1933 also saw the introduction of the Schneider Angulon which along with the Meyer Wide Angle Aristostigmat were the first practical modern wide angle lenses but initially the shortest focal lengths were 90mm.

Ian
 

Donald Qualls

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In addition, it used 620 instead of 120 film.

Some Argus TLRs are easily modified to use untrimmed 120 supply rolls. If the camera has a swing-out carrier, simply drilling the heads off the two blind rivets that hold it in place makes room for a 120 spool. Takeup to 120 isn't very reliable, but it's not impossible.
 
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  • Reason: Oops - didn't see Dan Fromm's post suggesting the same camera

jazzmandjango

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I know about the modern Bessa 667W (55mm, 6x6/6x7 on 120 film), the Plaubel/Brooks Veriwide, the Rolleiwide, and of course the Hasselblad SWC, but were there any wide angle folders that wouldn't cost an arm and a leg today? I'm thinking 50-60mm for 6x6 or around 80mm for 6x9. The Lomo LC-A 120 with its 38mm lens is too wide for my tastes, and the others I mentioned aren't really compact and are way too expensive for something I might use once every few years.

Given the wide angle, folding is unnecessary. Check out the Hassebald SWC903, it’s literally a wide lens and the film back, there’s no space to move the lens closer to the film.
 

Lachlan Young

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Given the wide angle, folding is unnecessary. Check out the Hassebald SWC903, it’s literally a wide lens and the film back, there’s no space to move the lens closer to the film.

And the engineering difference between a Hasselblad Super Wide/ SWC and the average folding camera of the 1950s is quite significant.
 

Dan Fromm

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1933 also saw the introduction of the Schneider Angulon which along with the Meyer Wide Angle Aristostigmat were the first practical modern wide angle lenses but initially the shortest focal lengths were 90mm.

Ian

Really? Berthiot's 1912 catalog lists f/16 Perigraphe Ser. VIa in focal lengths of 45, 60, 75, 90, ... These are ultrawides, claimed coverage 115 degrees. A 1907 Goerz catalog lists f/6.8 Dagors in the same focal lengths, claimed coverage only 90 degrees. All six elements in two groups, as is the Angulon. IIRC, W/A Aristostigmats are all 4/4 double Gauss types. TTH's Primplane Ser. VII, a wide angle triplet, was introduced, according to the VM, in 1907.
 

reddesert

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Relatively few fixed lens cameras, in most formats, had wide angle lenses until the 1970-80s (Excepting specialized pro cameras like an SWC, Brooks Veriwide, etc). Until the fixed lens RF/VF cameras of the 1970s (such as a Canonet with a 40mm lens, Olympus XA series with 35mm, etc) and then the P+S cameras of the 1980s and so on, when 28 to 35mm lenses became common. There are exceptions like the Olympus Wide from the 1950s with a 35mm lens, but they're pretty uncommon and nearly all in 35mm format.

There are probably both pictorial and construction reasons. Pictorially, if you can only have one focal length, "normal" (close to the film format diagonal) is a decent compromise. In practical construction reasons, most fixed lens cameras with a decent lens had a lens like a triplet or Tessar design, which covers the film format with good image quality at a "normal" focal length, but not if you make it shorter like a wide angle, especially not at fast apertures. Good coverage is one reason why Leicas and Retinas - which were not budget models - have 50mm lenses, slightly longer than the film diagonal.

Putting a semi-wide angle lens on a mass-market camera would have required good manufacturing tolerance and either reformulating a Tessar-type for wide angles or using a double Gauss design, and that didn't really reach the mass market until the 1970s with Canonets and similar cameras. (I know, the Canonet was introduced in 1961, but it doesn't get the 40mm lens until 1969.)
 

Dan Fromm

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Putting a semi-wide angle lens on a mass-market camera would have required good manufacturing tolerance and either reformulating a Tessar-type for wide angles or using a double Gauss design, and that didn't really reach the mass market until the 1970s with Canonets and similar cameras. (I know, the Canonet was introduced in 1961, but it doesn't get the 40mm lens until 1969.)
Um, Red, CZJ made a 28/8 Tessar for the Contax and a 55/8 Tessar for the VP Exakta. Both pre-WW II. I'm not sure that either qualifies as mass-market, they certainly weren't inexpensive when new.
 
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