Warning - Distilled Water Jugs

AgX · Nov 30, 2018

Rudeofus said:
I have never seen a canister leak out the liquid it was originally made to contain (unless it was mechanically damaged).

I repeatedly saw spray bottles for chlorine bleach leak, though being sold this way filled already by the manufacturer. The actual bottle and cap, made from L/HDPE, were stable, but with the bottles was delivered an extension tube, acting as grip, and a spray-gun, all three to be screwed together by the user. As the extention tube was made from a different material, when stored for a short period laying flat the extension tube developed tension cracks.
I do not need to describe the mess chlorine bleach can do if leaking undetected....

M Carter · Nov 30, 2018

jim appleyard said:
Best go to glass. Lots of folks like the bottles from Boston Rounds; I think that's the name. Besides, the plastic will let oxygen in, glass won't.

I just save all the heavy-duty jugs I can get - windshield fluid, drain cleaner, etc. My friends know to save them for me. I prefer them to heavy glass. I even have huge cat litter jugs for printing really big.

I once stored Dektol in a distilled water jug. You should see what leaked Dektol does to linoleum, eats right through it!

ic-racer · Nov 30, 2018

the

AgX said:
Could someone hint at a photo of such jug likely to crack? I am still clueless.
I mean, schlepping home a jug and then turning out to have already been leaking from within the store seems strange.

There are a number of internet references to the leaking bottles. I believe the leakage occurs because the bottles are designed to be biodegradable.
https://hoboken411.com/archives/127791
https://www.primalsurvivor.net/storing-water-milk-jugs/

I actually stopped using "distilled water" in these jugs. First, because it no longer is "distilled," it is merely filtered. Since I already have a filter on my darkroom water supply, for the last 7 years or so I have been mixing the PhotoFlo with my filtered tap water and have noticed no difference from when I used to use distilled water for the PhotoFlo.

Pieter12 · Nov 30, 2018

I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong, but I don't think (in the U.S. at least) you can label and sell something as distilled water and not have the contents be distilled water.

AgX · Nov 30, 2018

I have considered a lot of things, but not that destilled (or whatever) water could be sold in biodegradable jugs...

Rudeofus · Nov 30, 2018

ic-racer said:
I actually stopped using "distilled water" in these jugs. First, because it no longer is "distilled," it is merely filtered. Since I already have a filter on my darkroom water supply, for the last 7 years or so I have been mixing the PhotoFlo with my filtered tap water and have noticed no difference from when I used to use distilled water for the PhotoFlo.

There are filters, and there are filters. I would assume that DI water does not contain significant amounts of ions which are commonly associated with water hardness. Your regular water supply filters should not filter out these ions. Maybe your water supply is already very low on these ions, otherwise you'd likely get strong drying marks on your film from final rinse mixed with tap water.

Tim Stapp · Nov 30, 2018

My wife bought a 2-1/2 gallon container of distilled water for her CPAP. The container leaked like a seive. I decanted it into smaller containers. It wasn't through the spout or vent, but the counter was wet every morning.

DWThomas · Nov 30, 2018

Pieter12 said:
I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong, but I don't think (in the U.S. at least) you can label and sell something as distilled water and not have the contents be distilled water.

That seems likely. I know the gallon jugs I buy in my local grocery say "steam distilled" in small print on the label. This thread caught my eye as I have been keeping about 3 to 5 gallons of distilled water in my little darkroom since about 2006 when I got back into developing my own films. Sometime last year I walked into the darkroom to pick up an item and found the floor noticeably wet -- turned out to be a drippy jug.
I'm suspicious of the theory upthread that fragile containers are over concern about the environment or such. I think there's a general trend to design for minimum material in containers just to cut material cost. (I have joked that aluminum soda cans have gotten so thin you can see through them!)
I only use the sleazy water jugs for the water storage. Developers, fixers, and the like I keep in the PET soda or juice bottles; the cheap milk or water containers are known to be oxygen permeable, definitely undesirable for developers.

Pioneer · Nov 30, 2018

Lately I've noted a couple of leaky distilled water bottles. I use the distilled water then refill them with tap water in case of need. The ones that have started leaking had been reused a few times already so I just assumed they had been damaged in some way. If they leak I just send them for recycling.

The jugs that my distilled water come in are recyclable so I kind of doubt they are biodegradable, but I could be wrong.

ic-racer · Nov 30, 2018

Pieter12 said:
I am sure I will be corrected if I am wrong, but I don't think (in the U.S. at least) you can label and sell something as distilled water and not have the contents be distilled water.

I might not have been clear. Where I shop the bottles now say "FIltered" not distilled, the distilled water is gone. Maybe it is available where I don't shop, but I'd not know.

ic-racer · Nov 30, 2018

Rudeofus said:
There are filters, and there are filters. I would assume that DI water does not contain significant amounts of ions which are commonly associated with water hardness. Your regular water supply filters should not filter out these ions. Maybe your water supply is already very low on these ions, otherwise you'd likely get strong drying marks on your film from final rinse mixed with tap water.

Exactly! The PhotoFlo warning to use distilled or deionized water (that I heeded for many years) indeed mentions only VERY HARD water. My water hardness must fall under that designation.

If tap water is very hard or contains high levels of dissolved solids, mixing PHOTO-FLO Solutions with filtered, deionized, or even distilled water is suggested - Kodak

aoresteen · Nov 30, 2018

I have heavy duty 1 gal jugs from Arizona Tea and a store brand apple juice that I acquired 10 years ago. They do not leak. Just go to your grocery store and look at the juice isle and buy 5 gallons of your favorite drink that is in the heavy duty jug. Enjoy the contents and then use them to store your distilled water.

Europan · Dec 1, 2018

The thin-walled containers are blown. Thicker walls are molten pressed. Huge difference in the molecular structure

AgX · Dec 1, 2018

No plastic bottle is pressed.

All plastic bottles are blown out of a tube. Even whole canoes and large tanks are blown.
Alternatively containers are cast in a heated, rotary hollow form. This is done at very complex shapes beyond manufacturing out of a tube, or when same wall thickness at all locations is needed.

lantau · Dec 3, 2018

Seems to be a nice example of the crapification of the economy that goes along with financialisation. With regards to DI water it hasn't come that far here, yet. The 5L DI bottles that we had for as long as I remember are made from PE and are quite robust but still flexible. Flexible enough so that is is not ideal to have them lying on the side when using them as waste bottles. The threading can flex a little and leak a few drops over time.

For a few years now (maybe longer, I was abroad for most of the previous decade) there are also 5L PET bottles in some shops. The walls do flex as well, but the mouth and its threading are more sturdy as PET is harder. I use them for my colour chems. 5L ECN dev tank solution and 5L Flexicolor C41 developer. Mild alkaline solutions are not a problem unless you want to reflux a PET sample in NaOH solution.

Those PET bottles are also great for mixing Kodak D76, because PET doesn't soften when filled with hot water. I don't like using the large PE bottles for that.

Your DI bottles seem to be like the 2L soft drink bottles that came to market in the 90s. Very thin walled, they are pressure filled so that the bottles are ridgid for handling along the distribution chain. Once you open them you have to be careful when holding them with one hand. I don't think they are as popular as they used to be, but then I hardly ever buy such large soft drinks.

Pieter12 · Dec 3, 2018

The distilled water gallon jugs I get locally are HDPE. Seems durable and I have never had a problem, but this thread has me wary. I store used chemistry in them until it is disposed, usually several months.

Born2Late · Dec 3, 2018

Wow, I sure got a lot of comments on this one.

After thinking about it, we probably won't have the problem for long; plastic jugs will most likely be outlawed along with straws, etc and we'll have to use glass or paper.

Rudeofus · Dec 4, 2018

lantau said:
Seems to be a nice example of the crapification of the economy that goes along with financialisation. With regards to DI water it hasn't come that far here, yet.

You get three to five full 5l jugs of DI water for the price of a similarly sized empty canister. Little surprise, that the container holding the DI water is not made from a milled block of Vespel, and that it is not that useful outside its original range of applications. For most folks it is still a better deal than getting the DI water in a brown glass jar with ground glass cover. This has nothing to do with crapification, credit default swaps and sub prime auto loans, and everything to do with applying the most efficient solution to a well understood technical challenge.

It is our job as home brewers and darkroom users to research proper materials for safely holding our photographic liquids. This is the same kind of research that we need, when we decide whether to mix Pyro developers, Sodium Sulfide toners, Dichromate bleaches and Cyanide fixers in our kitchen ware. Yes, this sometimes means extra effort which could otherwise be directed towards artistic expression, but we're following a loooong tradition here.

Ian Grant · Dec 4, 2018

The milk bottles used here in the UK are very thin walled. A few years ago I made up some plant food crystals that had got damp and stored the solution in an old milk bottle, I was living abroad most of the time and it leaked while I was away.

I'm very careful what plastic bottles I use for photochemistry particularly developers as this has a profound effect on shelf life, I only use high density plastics, but the bottles themselves last for years.

Ian

guangong · Dec 4, 2018

Living in rural area of NW NJ where electrical service is somewhat iffy and dependent on well water, we store water in large containers that contained pretzels. Thus water for washing and cooking. I usually only use distilled water when processing movie film because of the need for consistency, otherwise well water works just fine. Erratic electrical service shortens life of appliances, but my computers run on battery power.
Every now and then Democrats propose

guangong · Dec 4, 2018

to tax well water because it is supposedly “free”.;Apparently wells, pumps and electricity are natural occurrences.

AgX · Dec 4, 2018

Rudeofus said:
It is our job as home brewers and darkroom users to research proper materials for safely holding our photographic liquids.

But in the case of prefilled bottles that information is hard to obtain, if at all.
And as said I would not even have thought of such bottles being self-destructive, to use this term.

Rudeofus · Dec 4, 2018

AgX said:
But in the case of prefilled bottles that information is hard to obtain, if at all.
And as said I would not even have thought of such bottles being self-destructive, to use this term.

There are polymer materials which will:

become brittle in cold conditions
become soft in hot conditions
disintegrate in the presence of strong acids or alkalis
let through oxygen
age rapidly in the presence of sunlight

It takes some effort to build bottles which don't do any of the above. Unless you can make 100% sure that a bottle can hold the process liquid you want, you should not assume it can. Most materials will not instantly fall apart if you get them in contact with photographic liquids, but I have seen seepage with quite a few of them. Using a good secondary containment goes a long way towards containing such small leaks.

AgX · Dec 4, 2018

I know all that above. Moreover today there are more and more containers made not from single polymers but from blends, from laminates, with inner coatings etc.

But with prefilled containers you would not know about this all. That is my point.

lantau · Dec 6, 2018

Rudeofus said:
You get three to five full 5l jugs of DI water for the price of a similarly sized empty canister. Little surprise, that the container holding the DI water is not made from a milled block of Vespel, and that it is not that useful outside its original range of applications. For most folks it is still a better deal than getting the DI water in a brown glass jar with ground glass cover. This has nothing to do with crapification, credit default swaps and sub prime auto loans, and everything to do with applying the most efficient solution to a well understood technical challenge.

It is our job as home brewers and darkroom users to research proper materials for safely holding our photographic liquids. This is the same kind of research that we need, when we decide whether to mix Pyro developers, Sodium Sulfide toners, Dichromate bleaches and Cyanide fixers in our kitchen ware. Yes, this sometimes means extra effort which could otherwise be directed towards artistic expression, but we're following a loooong tradition here.

There were comments above about jugs with their original filling beginning to leak. That is what I refered to. To me that is not an efficient solution.

Obviously one needs to check and judge if any container will handle lab chems. I can only imagine that that leaking container of the CPAP user was very thin walled and failed at a bend or was too easily punctured.

Perhaps my water is more expensive at €1.79 for 5L, allowing for a sturdier bottle. They hold up well to my current three types of photographic waste solutions.

Warning - Distilled Water Jugs

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