Warm Tone Papers

SuzanneR · Aug 14, 2005

some examples

Just thought I'd upload a couple of examples of the Ilford MGIV warm tone. These were developed using dektol, then toned in selenium at about 1+7 dilution. The one with my sons face, still has a slight green color to my eye, but the others don't. I may still try the rest of the pack of paper in a different developer, as the tone isn't quite what I'm looking for.

Someone mentioned that the emulsion can stick to things when wet. Boy, you're not kidding! There are some tiny specs on these scans where the emusion must have stuck to the screens, or perhaps to dust on the screens. The screens will get a thorough washing, and I'll be laying the prints face up on the screens in the future. I plan to try some different papers as well. Will other WT papers have particularly sticky emulsions when wet, or is this unique to the Ilford. I've never had this problem with the regular MGIV.

Lastly, and most importantly, any feedback of the photos would be very appreciated. Just want to get a feel if others think this type of imagery works with the warm tones.

Thanks again for the input everyone!
Cheers,
Suzanne

Bruce Osgood · Aug 14, 2005

This isn't glossy is it? Looks more like semi gloss.

Paul Sorensen · Aug 14, 2005

It does look green, kind of like Forte non-warm tone looks before selenium. My experiences with Ilford Warmtone have been much less green and much more brown. I also developed in Dektol. I don't have anything else to add, unfortunately.

Good luck.

SuzanneR · Aug 14, 2005

Yes, these are glossy. Is it possible that Ilford WT is not consistent from box to box? Or perhaps my paper is out of date? Would it take on this kind of color if it's out of date?

Thanks

Bob F. · Aug 14, 2005

I dry face down on screens without any damage. I squeegee the prints on both sides before laying them down. These things probably have various causes: local humidity, ambient temperature, etc...

Looking at the photos, the shadows look warm but the selenium does not seem to have expelled the green from the highlights as much, so perhaps a longer or more concentrated mixture? I use 1+4 for up to half an hour at room temperature. Probably a different developer such as Neutol WA will give a better tone.

Cheers, Bob.

Tom Stanworth · Aug 14, 2005

Warm papers I like:

Agfa MCC (VC) - Beautiful versatile paper with a hint of warmth. Great blacks, very punchy and great finish. V consistent and tones well. Prob my desert island paper. Good for most things.

Forte - Fortezo (graded) and Polywarmtone (VC). G2 Fortezo is very soft (handy for when I totally muck up a neg by souping it to hell. G3 Fortezo - wonderful, very warm, very sensitive to toner and splits well in selenium, but be careful as tones fast. Polywarmtone, is basically the same as the above, but I dont like it as much in selenium, but cannot put my finger on why. I think it is because the upper tones remain slightly green in siome devs. Fortezo split in selenium is as good as it gets.

Seagul VC WT - Too expensive! Very nice off gloss finish, very warm. Nicest brown out of teh dev I have seen. Does not split in my experience...at all. IN a snap the green cast is gone, and the print is uniformly toned.

Fotospeed Legacy (VC). Very very nice, but I am not convinced it has anything over the MCC, which is far cheaper! Goes a bit of a cold purple black in selenuium.

If I had to try one paper to mess with it would be Forte Polywarmtone as it is very warm and very flecible. Gold tones a treat too for a deep blue black. WATCH OUT...Forte sends out teh odd duf box to keep you on your toes.....Got my first recently.

rusty71 · Aug 14, 2005

There is nothing wrong with Ilford Mulitgrade WT that a good developer won't fix.
AGFA Neutol is much better than Dektol, Ethol LPD is very good too. Edwal makes a liquid called "Platinum II". Very nice stuff, and the best warm tone paper developer if you can get it. They also make a chemical called Orthazite which can get rid of the green cast if added to the paper developer.

Agfa MC Classic Glossy is a bit warmer than Ilford, and the semi-matte is on a very warm base. The longer you wash the Ilford, the warmer the highlights get. I wash for about an hour. Toning in selenium 1:6 gives nice split tones.

Forte Fortezo is great paper, but I've found it to be rather finicky. It's very slow, and requires longer print times than Ilford or AGFA. It can tone beautifully in selenium, but if you leave it in too long it turns a weird magenta color. That can be good for some stuff, but too much for most.

Have fun and take notes so you can reproduce the look you like and avoid the rest.

Mongo · Aug 14, 2005

I've had excellent results with Ilford MG IV using Agfa Nuetol-WA for the developer. The results are not subtle...very definately warm. For some subjects, this is my favorite combination.

Neutol-WA seems to last a very long time in the bottle...a distinct advantage if you're not doing a lot of warmtone work.

I've never had problems with the prints sticking to the screens, but I wonder what the humidity was like when you were drying your prints. I imagine that high humidity might make this likelier to occur.

Be well.
Dave

Tom Stanworth · Aug 15, 2005

rusty71 said:
Forte Fortezo is great paper, but I've found it to be rather finicky. It's very slow, and requires longer print times than Ilford or AGFA. It can tone beautifully in selenium, but if you leave it in too long it turns a weird magenta color. That can be good for some stuff, but too much for most.
.

I have found the lack of speed to be a major problem with Polywarmtone sometimes....sometimes almost a show stopper for large prints, but fortezo being graded (and requiring no filtration) tends to expose in reasonable time IMO. In contrast to the above I have found it enormously forgiving and flexible. Pretty well anything prints on G3 with changes in dev time as required to tweak contrast.....apart from a neg I did 2 days ago which needed grade 2! I have not needed or used the G4.

I too find the pinkness of the Ilford W/Tstrange and agree that increased wash times increase it further (The RC is not pink, only the FB). The prob here is that if you are doing toning, bleaching...refixing etc wash times mount up and you end up with a pink print if you are not careful. The ilford is a contrasty paper at the upper end and so great if you have flat negs which need real contrast. I have useed a few boxes and am not keen especially...due to fear of that pink!

Just a few other opinions I forgot earlier....Legacy is fast like other fotospeed papers (fast like a neutral paper) and it splits very well indeed. With the right image it is very precise.

abeku · Aug 15, 2005

A long time favourite has been the Emaks K888 paper together with Neutol WA. It has warm tone but I prefer to bleach the highlights and use a sulphur toner to achieve a very warm tone. Recently, I have tried Fomatone FB in Neutol WA and the brown/green character is very pleasant of the prints.

SuzanneR · Aug 15, 2005

Thanks for all the follow-ups. Yes, it has been VERY humid here lately, so maybe that was the problem with the screens. There are a couple of prints on the Legacy in the gallery by Leon. They look really nice, so I looked up the paper... ouch, expensive! I won't be able to print 'til Sept., but I will be collecting some different developers, and a package or two of different papers in the meantime!! Still plenty of summer shooting left!!

Cheers

df cardwell · Aug 18, 2005

Suzanne Revy said:
Just thought I'd upload a couple of examples of the Ilford MGIV warm tone. These were developed using dektol, then toned in selenium at about 1+7 dilution. ...
Suzanne

Hi Suzanne

Nice pictures. However, your chemistry is arguing with the paper.

Dektol is a cold developer, and selenium... well, it might cover a green tone a bit, but adds it's own character. Not to mention adding work to the process.

I hate it when somebody harps on their own way of doing something, but I'm going to do it. Sorry. But I feel a little justified because I learned the technique from a great old printer who had to match classic prints made on Kodak Illustrator's Special ( like ektalure on a pure white paper and a dead smooth ). You had to feel the warmth of the image, but not see it.

So, this is something I learned along the way, I didn't cook it up myself.

Using a glycin-metol devleoper, like Ansco 130, will give deep, warm blacks with no green. And you won't need to mess with selenium. You'll get a transition black that is umber, with a little ivory black. The full, paper, black is ivory black. Midtones are shades of cocoa, and the paper white is warmish white lead. Lush, but not arty. You can get a liquid version from Photographer's Formulary, it's called BW 65. You can also get Formulary 130 in powder.

I've found the Ilford WT to be very consistent from box to box. An alternative to this, if you like a hint of warmth in the blacks without going all colory is Agfa MCC. It is a fine paper. The difference, to me, I like the Agfa better. Working with the formula of the developer, you can make one look like the other. I use whichever I can get.

Cheers, and thanks for your patience. You can have the thread back.

Really nice pictures.

SuzanneR · Aug 18, 2005

Don,

Excellent info!

One quick question for you, so that I'm clear... the Ansco 130 is best used with a warm tone paper, right?

I'm going to try a couple different developers, including the Ansco 130, and Neutal WA with the Ilford WT. I have some Agfa MCC on hand, and decided to buy some of the Berrger VCCB as well. Several different combinations!! Should make for some fun sessions in the darkroom this Sept.

BTW, since you mentioned Suzanne Szazs in a PM, I looked her up. I only know the baby feet pic, but plan on ordering one of her books. Thanks for bringing her to my attention.

df cardwell · Aug 19, 2005

Ansco 130 is equally good for cold and warm tone papers. as wonderful as Amidol, but different, Glycin has some real merit.

Big smiles about Suzanne Szasz. Great photographer.

Nicole · Aug 20, 2005

Suzanne I can't give you much advice but just wanted to tell you that I really quite like the Agfa fibre based papers - Classic, Semi-Gloss and Gloss. They are already warm and the semi gloss and gloss FB give really nice blacks for particular prints. Toned with Agfa Veridon they can look incredible!

SuzanneR · Sep 15, 2005

Just to follow up on this thread from last month... I just finished up two days of printing with some new papers and developers. As soon as everything is dry I will post some of the results to the gallery, but I just wanted to add a few thoughts. It seems there are an infinite number of paper/developer combinations, so I think the diversity of opinion on this subject speaks to the bounty of choices out there. If I were to test all the possibilites, my head would explode! (Would make a bit of a mess in the darkroom!)

At any rate, I think at the end of the day, I just don't like brown prints, so I think I'm going to stick with the Agfa/Ansco 130 combination. Lovely highlights, very subtle warm tone, without too much brown color. Darker areas can be a bit of a challenge. I quite liked the Ilford warm tone in this developer too, but I think I'll use the Agfa for the very valid artisitic reason that it's cheaper! Both were very similar in feel.

I also quite liked the Berrger VCCB in Neutal WA. (This paper soes not like the Ansco 130) Again, very nice highlights, and mid tones... but the color of the paper is a bit more brown than I like. I may, yet, come back to this combination, but I like to work with one thing at a time, and really get to know it well.

Thanks again for everyone's help. I have a ton of summer images waiting to be printed....

cheers,
Suzanne

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