Warm Tone Papers

SuzanneR · Aug 10, 2005

I've searched the archives, but haven't found any threads that quite cover what I need, so apologies if this has been covered. Direct me to any link if it has!!

I feel that some of my shooting would benefit from being printed on warm tone papers. My taste has always run to neutral/cool tone papers, but yesterday I did some printing on Ilford MG IV warmtone. Whenever I've used warm tone papers, I just didn't like the results, and didn't pusue it further. I have a feeling that I just need to REALLY learn how to print with these papers, and live with the results awhile before I decide, they are totally yucky. (My common reaction)

So... a few questions. My prints from yesterday look ever so slightly green in color. Is that anyone else's experience? I haven't toned them yet, but I plan to give them a bath in selenium, any ideas how the paper will respond to this toner? I used dektol, my normal developer. I expect a warm tone developer might shift the color, so any recomendations there would be helpful. I also found that I really needed to add contrast. The prints seemed a little flat. Say you have a negative that prints on a cool/neutral paper at a 3 filter. Do you find that you are printing using a 4 filter with the warm tone paper? Lastly, if I have a contrastier negative that I normally split grade print, how do warm tone papers respond to this technique. Any other thoughts on using these papers in general would also be appreciated. The prints are still damp, but I will upload them to the gallery when they dry. (OOOH... there's another question? Dry down effect with these papers??)

Thanks in advance for your help.

psvensson · Aug 10, 2005

I like MGIV quite well, except that it's expensive and the base is unnecessarily pink. I heard Dektol can give a green tone that can be countered with selenium. You might try Neutol WA for a warmer tone that doesn't look green to me. It tones very warm in Kodak Brown Toner. I haven't experienced any shift in contrast versus neutral-tone paper, but warmtone is usually slower.

However, I like Forte Polywarmtone better than MGIV. It has a more neutral base (but slightly dark) and a warmer emulsion. It's even slower IIRC. Somehow highlights look absolutely fantastic on this paper - maybe it has a steep curve in that section.

dlin · Aug 10, 2005

Hi Suzanne. Ilford MGWT papers, just like other papers, can give you beautiful results if you learn the different ways to handle it to achieve what you are looking for. What is it that you would like to achieve in your prints? A hint of warmth, rich chocolate color, or vivid sepia tone? Each of these would require different development and post-processing steps- they are not all intrinsic to the paper itself.

In response to your specific questions:
MGWT is considerably slower than its cool/neutral tone equivalent (i.e. requires more exposure) and responds slightly differently to different filter settings in terms of contrast control
In my experience, MGWT comes out decidedly green with Dektol, which as you mentioned can be altered with selenium toning. I use my own developer, which avoids the greenish cast. With more prolonged toning in a more concentrated Selenium bath (1:9), the paper shifts to a ruddish brown tone, which can look quite nice with some subjects.
Dry down is substantial with MGWT fiber base, especially with surfaces other than glossy.

Hope this helps as a starting point. Please feel free to ask for more details.
All the best,
Daniel

Bob F. · Aug 10, 2005

I'm actually a fan of warm tones...

Selenium should kill the green. If you are looking for a big colour shift in selenium tho' you will probably be disappointed (but let us know if you get a strong change) - some people report a small shift but it must depend on developer etc as I've not detected any on mine - at best a small dmax increase I need to measure to detect... I use Neutol WA as my standard developer for warm tones. It's economical and does the job with MGIV-WT. I use either Neutol NE or Ilford's MG developer for more neutral tones.

I find I do need to give full development (I do a full 3 minutes in Neutol) to get a good black. I always split-grade print regardless of the negative... Be careful when the paper is still wet/damp as the emulsion will tend to stick to things - don't put one on top of the other in a press for example until they are quite dry (I ruined two prints by trying to use a blotter under pressure to flatten them while they were still damp - they stuck to it) - once they are dry they are fine and I flatten them in a mounting press OK. I apply 10% drydown. YMMV as always...

Cheers, Bob.

brent8927 · Aug 10, 2005

I use the Ilford warmtone papers; I tried others but just didn't find them to my taste. However, the fiber-based paper will give a warmer result than RC paper, in case you were using RC. Also, the developers make a huge difference. When I first started printing I used our labs machine developer (in a tray of course- fiber paper falls apart!) and got a very neutral-toned image. Then I went out and bought some HQ Warmtone Developer and haven't used anything else since...

Guillaume Zuili · Aug 10, 2005

Hello Suzanne,

Chlorobromure papers are best as graded papers but Agfa Record Rapid or Portriga are now long gone.
On the multigrade side, one of the most consistent paper is the Agfa Multicontrast FB. On graded paper, you have the Kentmere Kentona which is beautifull ( but grade 2 only).
Forte Polywarmtone or Tropical (graded) are great too but slow and can change from box to box. (are they still around ?)
You need to play with the developper to find your best adjustment.
The more you dilute your dev, the warmer your print will be. Long time in the tray, but excellent control of the values.
If you keep a strong solution, you can overexpose the print and have a short dev time. It's really warm at first and tend to be colder as long as you keep into it.
So, the dev is really important.
Neutol WA is a very good start. You can dilute it way more than the usual 1+7. If you can find some Moersch products (german made), they have some incredible dev. too.
Hope thet helps.
Best regards,
Guillaume

Bruce Osgood · Aug 10, 2005

Suzane,

I don't use RC papers anymore at all. I have just finished a 25 sheet box of 8X10 Kentmere VC Fineprint Warmtone. It has the look of the Ilford RC Pearl paper. I still prefer the MG IV VC FB Warmtone - Glossy in the 8X10 and 11X14 sizes. I am going to try next the Kentmere Glossy VC paper but I don't expect to find anything better than MG IV papers in todays market.

jim appleyard · Aug 10, 2005

Adorama (www.adorama.com) makes a very inexpensive warmtone, FB paper. It's only $.50/sheet for 8x10. I have yet to try it, but the price is sure nice. Perhaps someone else can help you with that.

SuzanneR · Aug 10, 2005

Thank you all for the information. The paper I used was fiber. (Don't much like RC papers, except for quick proofs). I'm looking for a very subtle warm tone, not too heavy sepia or brown. I don't care for the overly toned look for my work. I think my best bet at this point is to play around with the developer. I learn much better if I change one variable at time, so I'll stick with the Ilford Warmtone to start, and maybe try the Neutal. Someone also suggested Ansco 130 by PM. So I have two developers to try!

Thanks for all the help, and I'll let you know how the toning goes with the current batch of prints!

bon-jip · Aug 10, 2005

Suzanne

Im not sure how available it is in the States but one paper that I have stumbled across recently is Marco expo RF, its graded - Chlorobromide and looks very nice in Neutol WA.
I find it is quite slow and I use a dry down factor of 11%. The base is a warm white as opposed to sepia/brown, but it accepts tones very well if you decided to go warmer I forgot a print in Viradon once and was amazed at just how brown you can get a print without really trying.

Have fun; warm can really set the right print apart.

Jason.

jim appleyard · Aug 10, 2005

Another option, seeing as you don't want to get too heavy on your warm tone, is to print on "normal" paper and then tone with sepia, brown, etc., toners. That way you can control how warm each print gets.

I haven't read the book, but Tim Rudman has apparently written an excellent book on toning. Perhaps a google search or amazon.com.

Anchell's "Darkroom Cookbook" has several recipes for make-yourself toners. Even if you don't go this route, the "Cookbooks" by Anchell/Anchell & Troop make good reading.

Mark H · Aug 10, 2005

Agfa Classic FB paper is warmer than Ilford FB to begin with. You can then warm it up further using a homemade thiocarbamide toner (an odorless "sepia" toner which has 2 stock solutions that keep for a very long time; by varying the proportions, you can produce a wide range of warm and cool tones).
I saw a friend's photos at an exhibit last week and was struck by the subtle warm tone of them. She reminded me I had recommended the above combination to her and she added a final selenium toning.
"Creative Elements" by Eddie Ephraums is an excellent book on toning, as is Tim Rudman's book on toning.

livemoa · Aug 11, 2005

I am printing up a show on Oriental Seagul warmtone paper currently, I like it, great warm tone that can be enhanced with a warm tone developer. I'm using Neutol.

SuzanneR · Aug 11, 2005

Thank you all for the suggestions! I have some good ideas to try, and you've given me a good base of information. I'll be referring back to this thread a lot!!

Thank you! Thank you!

ineffablething · Aug 11, 2005

Ilford warmtone is one of the crappiest warmtone papers out there, IMHO. Silver poor and not so responsive to developers or toners. Try toning it 1:5 in selenium. That will give you the nice chocolate brown look that used to be featured on their box. It was the picture of BB King sitting in a chair, by Albert Watson. For the best, most responsive paper out there, try the Bergger VCCB. It responds well to developers and selenium and brown toner. It gives a really nice warmtone with just dektol, no toning. If you try selenium toning, start at 1:20. It gives a really nice eggplant purplish tone at that dilution.

W.

Guillaume Zuili · Aug 11, 2005

ineffablething said:
Ilford warmtone is one of the crappiest warmtone papers out there, IMHO. Silver poor and not so responsive to developers or toners. Try toning it 1:5 in selenium. That will give you the nice chocolate brown look that used to be featured on their box. It was the picture of BB King sitting in a chair, by Albert Watson. For the best, most responsive paper out there, try the Bergger VCCB. It responds well to developers and selenium and brown toner. It gives a really nice warmtone with just dektol, no toning. If you try selenium toning, start at 1:20. It gives a really nice eggplant purplish tone at that dilution.

W.

I agree !!! It would be better to try something else.

SuzanneR · Aug 11, 2005

OOf... sometimes you get too much advice! Since I still have some of the Ilford left, I'll probably try a different developer on it, but, now I'm tempted to try the Bergger. It's about the same price as the the Ilford. Hmmmm....

Thanks everyone! Lots of good ideas! I'm sure I'll find the look I want, now!

Bruce Osgood · Aug 11, 2005

SNIP

ineffablething said:
Ilford warmtone is one of the crappiest warmtone papers out there, IMHO. Silver poor and not so responsive to developers or toners....

...For the best, most responsive paper out there, try the Bergger VCCB. It responds well to developers and selenium and brown toner. It gives a really nice warmtone with just dektol, no toning. If you try selenium toning, start at 1:20. It gives a really nice eggplant purplish tone at that dilution.

W.

end snip

Well, anybody who can make a statement like that get's my attention. I went out and bought 8X10 and 11X14 Bergger VCCB today and will give IT a try. I've been looking for something to replace Ilford for a while now.

If it works I'll thank you, if it doesn't, I'll.... let you know.

Travis Nunn · Aug 11, 2005

Has anyone tried any of Kentmere's warmtone papers? I've tried the Fineprint Warmtone and I like it. I have a box of their Art Classic paper on order, it should be here early next week. Judging from the reaction here to Ilford's warmtone paper I don't think there will be much interest, but Freestylephoto has 8x10 Semi-Matte, 25 packs of Ilford Warmtone Fiber priced at $6.99. I think this is an error in pricing because the glossy is $26.99.

Bruce Osgood · Aug 11, 2005

Travis,
I just completed a 25 sheet box of Kentmere Fineprint VC Warmtone. I found it a lot like Ilfords RC Pearl paper. That isn't bad but the warmth seems to come across as flatness. I do split grade printing and I couldn't get a handle on the Kentmere. I'm going to try Bergger VCCB tomorrow.

gmack · Aug 11, 2005

Bruce (Camclicker) said:
Travis,
I just completed a 25 sheet box of Kentmere Fineprint VC Warmtone. I found it a lot like Ilfords RC Pearl paper. That isn't bad but the warmth seems to come across as flatness. I do split grade printing and I couldn't get a handle on the Kentmere. I'm going to try Bergger VCCB tomorrow.

I have read in numerous forums that Berger VCCB is the same as Forte's Polywarmtone which is admitted by J&C to be the same as their Polywarmtone. Does anyone have comparitive experience.

If they are the same I'd much rather buy the cheaper version.

jim appleyard · Aug 11, 2005

It's been said here, and on other sites, that Bergger doens't make anything. I don't know about J&C.

Travis Nunn · Aug 12, 2005

Bruce (Camclicker) said:
Travis,
I just completed a 25 sheet box of Kentmere Fineprint VC Warmtone. I found it a lot like Ilfords RC Pearl paper. That isn't bad but the warmth seems to come across as flatness. I do split grade printing and I couldn't get a handle on the Kentmere. I'm going to try Bergger VCCB tomorrow.

I'm still in the very early stages of trying warm tone papers, I just haven't used them before until recently. In general, I feel that if you don't try different papers you really won't know what you like and don't like. I do plan on trying Bergger and Forte warmtone papers. I've read where Bergger and Forte warmtone papers lith print very nicely where as Ilford doesn't.

I haven't read much about Foma's papers, does anyone here have any experience with them?

Peter Schrager · Aug 12, 2005

Bergger etc.

Forte makes the papers but the Forte WT is it's own beautiful paper. Bergger has the formulations made to their specs by Forte. The great thing about analog is that you have to try it. I would buy some of each. Never go on someone elses say so. They are all nice papers-you can always sell off the rest to someone else.
Best, Peter

Travis Nunn · Aug 12, 2005

peters said:
...I would buy some of each. Never go on someone elses say so. They are all nice papers-you can always sell off the rest to someone else...

Well said.

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