Warm tone paper question

[John Wiegerink]

I was told once that the only stupid question is the one that wasn't ask. So, here goes! Why are the prices for warm tone papers so much higher than normal or neutral tone papers. It's not just Ilford, but even Oriental Seagull papers and Foma too. Just curious?????

 

[NB23]

I don't know.
But those papers are much more desirable! Therefore a luxury...

 

[MattKing]

As I understand it, the market for neutral tone papers is much larger than the market for warm tone papers, due to the fact that the neutral tone papers still have commercial applications. Bigger market = higher volumes = lower prices.
It probably works the other way as well: Lower prices = bigger market = higher volumes.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Matt,
You must be a businessman or an industrialist? That analogy is from a pro-business/retail standpoint and one I always question. So, what I'm about to say is not just directed at you. It would seem to me that if the two papers require the same manufacturing time, materials and labor then the cost ought to always be very near the same. Which is certainly not the case here. My analogy is this, more popular paper + higher demand and volumes = get as many $ as we can. Another words, "Stick it to John Q. Public". Why sugar coat the obvious? Now, I don't know if the cost of manufacture is the same or not and that's why I ask this stupid question. I don't mind paying more for something that cost more to make, is better made or last longer, but not because it's just more popular. Of course we, as consumers, have no choice if we want a certain print to have a certain look we'll have to pay for it. Why? Because the companies dictate to us exactly what we are going to pay and will push that total cost to us to the limit 95% of the time. It's our choice whether or not we want to pay it or not. Now, for the $64,000.00 question..................does it cost more to make or is there another "real" reason it cost more. Maybe you're right Matt and the companies just like being greedy?

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I would imagine that economies of scale and raw material pricing dictate the price.
Higher volume purchase = better price for raw materials.
Warm tone papers use some raw materials that are different from those used in other emulsions; with the lower volume sold, (and therefore lower volume produced), smaller quantities are purchased by the manufacturer. One could hence opine that the finished good price would consequently be higher for that reason alone.

I'm not sure how the pure cost of the raw materials themselves, all other things being equal, would affect things.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...It would seem to me that if the two papers require the same manufacturing time, materials and labor then the cost ought to always be very near the same. Which is certainly not the case here...

That's two ways of saying the same thing. Cost. Not price. Whether it's the case here isn't something knowable without insider information.

...I don't mind paying more for something that cost more to make, is better made or last longer...

As is your prerogative. Just like others can choose to pay more for things that cost less to make, are of poorer quality or fall apart sooner. Which many members of the public do for a variety of reasons that neither you nor I can probably grasp.

...Of course we, as consumers, have no choice if we want a certain print to have a certain look we'll have to pay for it. Why? Because the companies dictate to us exactly what we are going to pay...

That is incorrect. The market dictates price.

...does it cost more to make or is there another "real" reason it cost more...

Cost of production is irrelevant beyond the point that, if it's too high and the market won't support a price that provides all entities in the supply chain from manufacturer to retailer a profit they deem acceptable, production will cease.

We live in a capitalist economy. There are limited exceptions where public good is deemed reason to regulate it, but gelatin silver photographic paper is not one of them. The only law applicable to warm tone printing paper is supply and demand. Period.

Reality sucks, but it's real.

 

[John Wiegerink]

I would imagine that economies of scale and raw material pricing dictate the price.
Higher volume purchase = better price for raw materials.
Warm tone papers use some raw materials that are different from those used in other emulsions; with the lower volume sold, (and therefore lower volume produced), smaller quantities are purchased by the manufacturer. One could hence opine that the finished good price would consequently be higher for that reason alone.

I'm not sure how the pure cost of the raw materials themselves, all other things being equal, would affect things.

That's really what I want or wanted to know Thomas. Is it something in the manufacture that makes the warm tone papers, not just a little higher, but much higher than neutral tone style papers.

 

[John Wiegerink]

That's two ways of saying the same thing. Cost. Not price. Whether it's the case here isn't something knowable without insider information.As is your prerogative. Just like others can choose to pay more for things that cost less to make, are of poorer quality or fall apart sooner. Which many members of the public do for a variety of reasons that neither you nor I can probably grasp.That is incorrect. The market dictates price.Cost of production is irrelevant beyond the point that, if it's too high and the market won't support a price that provides all entities in the supply chain from manufacturer to retailer a profit they deem acceptable, production will cease.

We live in a capitalist economy. There are limited exceptions where public good is deemed reason to regulate it, but gelatin silver photographic paper is not one of them. The only law applicable to warm tone printing paper is supply and demand. Period.

Reality sucks, but it's real.

Sal,
I agree with much of what you say, but will argue that it wasn't always this way in our capitalistic economy. The market didn't always dictate the price. When I was a kid growing up in the country I hardly ever left the house without my trusty Remington 510 single shot .22 rifle. When my folks would make a trip to town on Saturday I would make a beeline to the hardware and paint store, which also carried an ample supply of ammo. .22 shorts were in the range of .40 cents a box, .22 longs, which were a little more power were around .50 cents a box and .22 long rifles which were a longer case and much more powerful than either the long or the short cartridge cost more yet. The price back in the early to mid 50's seemed much more based on production cost than what the market dictated. As the years went by we/I saw a change. All of a sudden the long rifle .22 shells were costing less than the longs or the shorts even though the cost of manufacturing the .22 long rifle was more. And here we are today with the same thing happening. Of course, lack of competition or collusion between companies is a factor also. If you don't believe that all you have to do is be old enough to remember how many different name gas stations there used to be and the savage gas wars that used to take place. That was certainly good for the general public, but maybe not so good for the petrol companies. Now we have several different named gas stations getting their gas out of the same darn tanker. not much competition now. I could keep complaining forever on this type of practice, but it won't make a darn bit of difference. I'll just buy what I can afford or need and will survive just fine.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...I agree with much of what you say, but will argue that it wasn't always this way in our capitalistic economy...

In those areas of the economy not subject to regulation, it was always that way.

...The market didn't always dictate the price. When I was a kid growing up in the country...The price back in the early to mid 50's seemed much more based on production cost than what the market dictated...

I also grew up in the 1950s. Your perception of what 'seemed' to be the basis for sales prices does not consider that market demand might very well have decreased over time for some versions with higher production costs. Projecting one individual's decision-making criteria onto the whole market is dangerous; that's how marketing executives can get themselves into trouble.

...all you have to do is be old enough to remember how many different name gas stations there used to be and the savage gas wars that used to take place. That was certainly good for the general public, but maybe not so good for the petrol companies. Now we have several different named gas stations getting their gas out of the same darn tanker. not much competition now...

Anti-trust laws used to be enforced. Without getting this thread moved to the Soap Box, let's just say that at some point strict enforcement ceased. As a result, gasoline is no longer produced, distributed and sold under a free-market capitalist arrangement in this country. It's an oligopoly, so comparison with gelatin silver paper is not valid in 2017.

...I'll just buy what I can afford or need and will survive just fine.

That's all any of us can do.

As a side note, I track stock status for a number of items at B&H. One of them is 8x10 Multigrade Warmtone FB. It flies off those shelves! Demand doesn't appear to be negatively affected by what you feel is too high a price.

 

[John Wiegerink]

As a side note, I track stock status for a number of items at B&H. One of them is 8x10 Multigrade Warmtone FB. It flies off those shelves! Demand doesn't appear to be negatively affected by what you feel is too high a price.[/QUOTE]


Oh yes, I'm sure it does fly off the shelves. A friend once told me something I will never forget. There was a certain "product" that he and I bought a lot of that the price was driven sky-high on, because of some scare tactic initiated by either a retailer or companies producing the item/product. We both ceased buying, but the demand was still there and the said product couldn't be kept on the shelf. His statement was, "Some people have more money than brains"! He's dead and gone now, but his statement still rings true to me on many thing in the market place to this day. I guess I can bitch, but when I hear what other countries have to spend for the same exact product I buy hear I guess I'll keep my mouth shut. Thanks Sal, John

 

[faberryman]

You can complain about prices, or price differentials, but you can't do anything about them other than vote with your wallet, so all this both and forth about economics is pointless.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Oh, let me be clear here! I'm not saying the warm tone papers aren't worth using. I'm just saying the price seems a little out of proportion.

 

[John Wiegerink]

You can complain about prices, or price differentials, but you can't do anything about them other than vote with your wallet, so all this both and forth about economics is pointless.

Yup, I agree 100% and it's the reason I made the statement about "more money than brains". I have more brains (not much more) than money!

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Oh, let me be clear here! I'm not saying the warm tone papers aren't worth using. I'm just saying the price seems a little out of proportion.

Like this? It's 30% more expensive.

 

[John Wiegerink]

Like this? It's 30% more expensive.

View attachment 175152

Tom, when your Dutch, 30% is the difference between life or death! Just joking of course, but it does tighten my purse strings.

 

[MattKing]

As a side note, I track stock status for a number of items at B&H. One of them is 8x10 Multigrade Warmtone FB. It flies off those shelves! Demand doesn't appear to be negatively affected by what you feel is too high a price.

Sal:
Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the B&H stocking information only gives you information when stocks are low. So if sale volumes and stock levels of other papers are uniformly high, there is little stock status information available.
I point that out, because my sense of things is that all or almost all of the big purchases - schools and the remaining commercial users and in particular the roll paper users - are being made of the non-warm tone papers. And my sense is that the costs of production and distribution are highly dependent on volumes and economies of scale.
Photographic paper must be extraordinarily expensive to distribute. It is relatively fragile, bulky and has a complex set of SKUs due to the variety of surfaces and sizes.
It may be that the higher price on the warmtone papers subsidize the lower prices on the other, much higher volume papers. Or it may actually work the other way, the prices on the higher volume papers may be slightly higher than they might be, in order to keep the warmtone prices within the realm of possibility.
As Harman's financial statements are publicly available (on a relatively slow basis), I'm fairly confident in my view that Harman/Ilford are a relatively small operation, and that they are not making very high profits.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe that the B&H stocking information only gives you information when stocks are low. So if sale volumes and stock levels of other papers are uniformly high, there is little stock status information available...

Here's how I track items of interest at B&H.

First, put an item in your cart. Then keep increasing the quantity until a message appears indicating that "the quantity you selected exceeds what we have in stock." Now decrement by one. From then on, when B&H sells more, the "quantity exceeds" message will pop up again if you check your cart. Decrement until it goes away to determine how many were sold. Unless/until B&H receives more stock of that item, in which case you'll notice that some time has passed since a "quantity exceeds" message has appeared, and you'll need to once again increment your cart to find the new stock level.

This is a lot of work, but, for items of great interest, it does afford a means to find out what sells and what doesn't.

 

[MattKing]

Here's how I track items of interest at B&H.

First, put an item in your cart. Then keep increasing the quantity until a message appears indicating that "the quantity you selected exceeds what we have in stock." Now decrement by one. From then on, when B&H sells more, the "quantity exceeds" message will pop up again if you check your cart. Decrement until it goes away to determine how many were sold. Unless/until B&H receives more stock of that item, in which case you'll notice that some time has passed since a "quantity exceeds" message has appeared, and you'll need to once again increment your cart to find the new stock level.

This is a lot of work, but, for items of great interest, it does afford a means to find out what sells and what doesn't.

Sal:
Have you done this with products like the roll papers, and the really common products, like 100 sheet boxes of 8x10 RC?
Just curious.
I also expect that B&H fills large orders to regular commercial and educational customers directly, without the stock actually ever being available for sale through the website.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

Sal:
Have you done this with products like the roll papers, and the really common products, like 100 sheet boxes of 8x10 RC?...

No to the roll paper, yes (a while ago) to 100-sheet boxes of RC Warmtone. The 25-sheet boxes of 8x10 FB Warmtone move many more units today than 100-sheet boxes of RC did back then.