Voigtlander Bessa Compur shutter repair

[Chadinko]

I collect old cameras (I know, I know, i'm different from everyone else here) and lately i've been looking at the "junk" sitting on my shelf with new interest. One of the cameras is a Voigtlander Bessa, apparently, though it could be an Avus. It has a Compur shutter with a 105/4.5 lens in it, and I can't find any reference to this shutter in the big Compur shutter repair manual.

The body of the camera is really in ratty shape, but the lens is clear and i'd like to get it working.

This is the shutter I have. Anyone know where I can get a repair manual for this, or even some really good photos of the shutter disassembled?

 

[macfred]

Maybe to use for reference http://pheugo.com/cameras/index.php?page=compurearly

 

[Chadinko]

Thanks, that's the closest i've seen to the shutter I have.

 

[R.Gould]

Looks from your photo like it could be an old compur rim set shutter, beyond that I can't help much as, in spite of the fact that I collect and use old cameras in preferance to more so called modern cameras I don't have the confidence to try and repair them,Good luck, hope you get it sorted

 

[anfenglin]

That is for one definitely not a Bessa, those were self erecting folders, what you have here is a folding bed, could be an Avus (look on the leather strap on top), and two, yes, a standard rim set compur.
I've seen exactly these in different sizes but sometimes with different name plates. The big ones back then, Voigtländer and Zeiss Ikon could order them at Deckel (FD Friedrich Deckel, the manufacturers of compound, compur and others) with their name on it to fit their cameras.
Service of one is pretty straight forward if you have a good manual.
I wanted to write one for ages but simply do not have had the time yet.
Please don't just flush it with lighter fluid.

 

[shutterfinger]

Doubtful you will find a repair manual for that vintage shutter.
http://www.suaudeau.eu/memo/rep/Compur-shutter-repair-manual.html
Look at the diagrams for shutters of the same size in the newer service manual and choose the ones that are closest to what you have.
The newer shutters are more refined and very similar to the vintage versions.
I repaired one that the top plate and delay mechanism matched one shutter, the bottom side (shutter blades, controller, aperture) matched a different shutter.

 

[Chadinko]

That is for one definitely not a Bessa, those were self erecting folders, what you have here is a folding bed, could be an Avus (look on the leather strap on top), and two, yes, a standard rim set compur.
I've seen exactly these in different sizes but sometimes with different name plates. The big ones back then, Voigtländer and Zeiss Ikon could order them at Deckel (FD Friedrich Deckel, the manufacturers of compound, compur and others) with their name on it to fit their cameras.
Service of one is pretty straight forward if you have a good manual.
I wanted to write one for ages but simply do not have had the time yet.
Please don't just flush it with lighter fluid.

I don't have lighter fluid. I use a cleaner designed for aviation maintenance that leaves no residue and cleans things out really pretty, and dries completely clean.

It probably is an Avus, though I'm struggling to find an example on Google image search that l looks exactly like the one I have. It looks more like a Bessa except it's not self-erecting. There's no handle and the leatherette is so badly deteriorated on the outside of the body that if there were once any markings on it, they are no longer there. The shutter is definitely an early Compur, and that manual you're wanting to write would come in REALLY handy right about now. The one I found on http://www.suaudeau.eu/memo/rep/compur-repair/01-03.html doesn't have this model in it, nor does it have anything with the same internal configuration. So I'm kinda stuck either sending it out or taking the time to try to figure it out on my own. If there are any other resources on the Web further than the one Madfre posted, I 'd love to know about them.

 

[shutterfinger]

Post some pictures of the shutter with the front cover off.

Lighter fluid is the go to cleaner for shade tree amateurs.

 

[Chadinko]

I'll take some pictures of it with the cover off when I get back to my desk.

 

[shutterfinger]

The more detail you can show the better (bigger picture than the previous one).
I'm fairly familiar with Compur shutters, will provide some tips on servicing.

 

[Chadinko]

The image I posted earlier was downloaded from some random website onto my phone and then uploaded here. It's not the actual shutter I have, just the same type.

 

[Chadinko]

Update: I took the shutter apart almost completely and figured out that the high-speed spring had somehow gotten rotated about 90 degrees inside the shutter, jamming it. So I carefully removed the spring and reinserted it the way it should be in the mechanism, reassembled the shutter and test-fired it. It worked perfectly at all speeds until I pushed the speed ring through the high-speed spring and the spring went pop out of place again. Disassembled the shutter once again, pulled the spring and bent it so that it sat as it should and there are now no issues with it. It fires smoothly at all speeds and all speeds seem accurate enough, though I don't have the equipment to test it.

So I decided to take the camera out this morning and run some film through it, only to realize when reassembling it that the bellows are completely shot. I am considering restoring the camera, so I'll have to look into getting or making some new bellows for it.

 

[AgX]

I wonder, to make it become loose, was it the spring that had been altering or the rest where it sat?

 

[Ian Grant]

The image I posted earlier was downloaded from some random website onto my phone and then uploaded here. It's not the actual shutter I have, just the same type.

That's the very basic early Rimset Compur, the only variations tend to be the release arm is modified for linkage to a specific camera along with an absence of a cable release socket, as that's on the camera top plate. Later the self timer and preview lever were added.

Ian

 

[Chadinko]

I wonder, to make it become loose, was it the spring that had been altering or the rest where it sat?

It appears so. It appears that that spring had been forced at one point -- maybe whoever owned the camera before had been a little too enthusiastic in setting the shutter speed to 1/200. Works perfectly now though.

 

[Chadinko]

That's the very basic early Rimset Compur, the only variations tend to be the release arm is modified for linkage to a specific camera along with an absence of a cable release socket, as that's on the camera top plate. Later the self timer and preview lever were added.

Ian

Yeah this one (and the other one I have) both have the shutter-mounted cable release socket.

 

[nanthor]

Anfenglin, why not flush it with lighter fluid? I am not advocating for the method but I've read that it is used by lots of folks. Can you let me know why it is not a good idea please? Thanks, Bob in Michigan.

 

[Ian Grant]

Anfenglin, why not flush it with lighter fluid? I am not advocating for the method but I've read that it is used by lots of folks. Can you let me know why it is not a good idea please? Thanks, Bob in Michigan.

Flushing with lighter fluid removes all the lubricants, the shutter might work fine for a short while after but not long term you're significantly increasing wear.

I'll clean stick shutter blades with a few drops of IPA (iso-propyl alcogol) or in the past Ethanol, that's usually enough to free sticky blades and shutters cleaned like that are still fine nearly 30 years later.

Ian

 

[shutterfinger]

The high speed spring usually has different length ends, any chance yours was turned upside down?
Nice that it was an easy fix. http://photo.net/large-format-photography-forum/0044cW?start=10 page 2 next to last post. easy to make, inexpensive, accurate.

Flushing a shutter with lighter fluid softens most dried out grease, does not remove the micro fine metal particles that accumulate from normal usage, transfers any dissolved oil to all parts it comes in contact with, and Naphtha damages plastic and rubber parts used in shutters that are currently in use.
Grease is oil in a soap base. Oil separates out after years of non use, the oil and soap base dry out. I have had to scrape dried soap base off a few shutters as nothing would dissolve it.

 

[Chadinko]

It wasn't upside down; it was physically bent. The first time I put it back in, I was about 45 degrees off and it didn't work. So I took the top off the other one I have (I have two that are identical) and referred to the other one for its orientation. It worked then, but the rim ring slipped off the spring, so I bent it back into shape and it works perfectly now.

As far as lighter fluid goes, I don't use that as a degreaser. My day job is in aviation maintenance and we have the GOOD stuff here -- I'm kinda spoiled for choice for degreasers and lubricants here. I use a degreaser called Shopkleen that eats away all oils and grease, leaves no residue and does not attack plastics, so I don't have to worry about it whatever I squirt it into. I can bathe it with that stuff and then do it again and it'll get rid of most particles.

 

[shutterfinger]

I use a degreaser called Shopkleen that eats away all oils and grease, leaves no residue and does not attack plastics

CRC Quick Dry Electronic Contact Cleaner is a very similar product and works better than most other brands of contact cleaners. Its available at auto parts store and hardware stores.
http://www.homedepot.com/p/CRC-11-oz-QD-Electronic-Cleaner-05103/205021975 There are some very good commercial cleaners that are not available to the general public.

A ultrasonic cleaner filled with 90% isopropyl alcohol works very well for cleaning shutters. (Edit) insert into the cleaner with the front cover removed, face down with the aperture at its smallest opening. Mine has a 5 minute (300 second) timer. The alcohol will become hot during the 3rd continuous cycle and cause paint to start coming off. A pause between cycles allowing the alcohol to cool prevents this. Cleaning is close to being as complete as a full disassembly cleaning.
Use lubricants sparingly. A trace of grease on moving parts where they meet, a sheen of oil on pivots. Shutter and aperture blades must remain dry.

 

[Chadinko]

I haven't oiled or greased anything; am I supposed to? I get conflicting assertions from different websites as to whether I should, so I didn't and it seems to work. Of course I haven't shot anything on it yet since it needs new bellows so if I need to oil it I have plenty of time to do it.

 

[shutterfinger]

I haven't oiled or greased anything; am I supposed to?

Some shutters were designed to run dry but work better with a trace amount of oil. Instructions say to touch the pivot end to a felt pad moistened with oil then wipe off the excess leaving a sheen. If you can put a drop about the size of a straight pin point on each pivot, an equivalent amount of grease around the case center where it contacts the speed ring, and the slots in the speed ring where the levers make contact then the shutter will run smoother and possibly last longer.

Look at the lubrication schedule in the Compur manual linked in this thread to see where Compur requires lubrication. I have no clue what their spec numbers relate to in modern grease. I used white lithium in the past and now use
https://www.amazon.com/Finish-Line-Premium-Grease-Fluoropolymer/dp/B002L5YYYA/ref=sr_1_1?s=outdoor-recreation&ie=UTF8&qid=1482200541&sr=1-1&keywords=teflon+grease&th=1&psc=1
I use TriFlow https://www.amazon.com/Tri-Flow-TF2...=UTF8&qid=1482200617&sr=8-2&keywords=tri+flow oil. Clock oil works well also.

 

[Chadinko]

I'll give it a look, thanks. I have a thin penetrating oil I use for very small stuff called Mouse Milk, which should work, and maybe some Molykote very thin lithium grease for the ring. That is, when I get round to it. I have an Agfa Compur Rapid i'm puzzling on right now that comes from an isolette that i'd like to use.

 

[shutterfinger]

Compur only made one basic shutter in each of 4 sizes then modified them to fit different applications.