Voigtlander Avus (edit: actually Baby Bergheil) 4.5x6cm: film holder?

stamasd

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2023
Messages
25
Location
USA
Format
35mm
I purchased recently a Voigtlander Avus in the 4.5x6cm format. The camera appears to be fully functional despite its age (according to the serial number it was made in 1926).
But I have a problem. It didn't cone with any film holders. I see a few on ebay but not in the correct size - all the ones I see for sale are either 6x9 or 9x12 (and some 10x17cm also).
Does anyone know of a source for those? Or have an idea of the size and construction thereof? Modern reproductions? Or maybe even better 3d print models (I have a 3d printer)?
 

loccdor

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 12, 2024
Messages
1,503
Location
USA
Format
Multi Format
Are you sure it's an Avus? I can't find anything about that ever coming in a 4.5x6 size. Can we see pictures?
 
OP
OP

stamasd

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2023
Messages
25
Location
USA
Format
35mm
Hmmm. It might be a Bergheil. Very similar device.
I'm trying to attach a picture but it won't let me. It says file is too big even though the jpg is 450kB, and I see the file limit is 2MB.
 

loccdor

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 12, 2024
Messages
1,503
Location
USA
Format
Multi Format
Looks like it might be a Baby Bergheil.

This video has some information. If you skip to 7:15, the issue about the film holders not being available is addressed.

 
OP
OP

stamasd

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2023
Messages
25
Location
USA
Format
35mm
Thank you for the link. Yes, that is exactly my camera.
Unfortunately I don't know a master in Tianjin to make a custom back for the camera. In fact, all I have is only a standard plate holder - not even the glass focusing back.
What I want to do with the camera is to adapt it for taking daguerrotypes. And maybe later on for custom made silver halide gelatin plates. That's why I was looking for film holders.
 

loccdor

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 12, 2024
Messages
1,503
Location
USA
Format
Multi Format
Well, at least we've identified it. I shoot with roll film and 35mm, hopefully one of the more old-school people here can help. Looks like a beautiful camera. Martin Henson has a video using one and taking great pictures, but his is the 6.5x9. He uses the Rada rollfilm back with it.
 
OP
OP

stamasd

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2023
Messages
25
Location
USA
Format
35mm
This is the back I have on the camera. A cassette that slides up, and also opens upwards on a hinge to place the plate inside.
I plan on making custom daguerrotype plates to place in that cassette. But if I had film holders it would be easier to change them from one picture to the next outside of a darkroom.
Hmm. I may need to get into sheet metal fabrication.
 
Last edited:

loccdor

Subscriber
Joined
Jan 12, 2024
Messages
1,503
Location
USA
Format
Multi Format
Here is something that says it's 4.5x6cm. I have no idea if it actually fits the camera.

Universal Vintage 4.5x6cm Sheet Film Holders x12 in Leather Pouch | eBay

Dust inside lenses, even new ones, won't affect images. If you plan to use them professionally, service or cleaning is advised. Expect reasonable functionality and optics without noticeable issues, unless specified.
www.ebay.com
 
OP
OP

stamasd

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2023
Messages
25
Location
USA
Format
35mm
From the shape of the holders, I'm pretty sure they won't.
 
OP
OP

stamasd

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2023
Messages
25
Location
USA
Format
35mm
Yeah. I have a pretty good idea of what I need to make. There's a 1mm groove in which the various backs fit, and I can measure that precisely. I can cut and bend 1mm aluminum without much difficulty. Putting the parts together though is going to be a little difficult, because 1mm is a little too thin to weld (which I can't do anyway) or even braze, and soldering aluminum is particularly difficult. Maybe epoxy, hmmm.

I need to make at least a custom ground glass back for focusing, and a number of plate/film holders with movable covers. Which should match the focal plane of the custom ground glass exactly.
 
OP
OP

stamasd

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2023
Messages
25
Location
USA
Format
35mm
Okay I measured the dimensions of the backplate and of the opening therein.
Posting this here, maybe it will help someone else in the future.

Basically, the part that slides in the camera is 1-1.2mm thick (thickness is not uniform, varies with where I measure it)
Outside dimensions: 56mm wide, 88mm tall
Opening: 43mm by 59mm, located 13.5mm above the lower edge and 6.5mm from the lateral edges.
 
OP
OP

stamasd

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2023
Messages
25
Location
USA
Format
35mm
And an incredibly simplistic 3D model I made based on the above, in zipped .stl format
 

Attachments

  • Baby Bergheil backplate mk1.zip
    454 bytes · Views: 39
OP
OP

stamasd

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2023
Messages
25
Location
USA
Format
35mm
And another 3D model for a mode complete backplate including slit for a custom metal slider and holder for cut film or plates of 4.5x6cm, up to 1mm thickness; as well as a separate back cover. It may contain errors although I don't think so. I can only 3D print fused-filament not resin and this model is not appropriate for that, so I ordered a few copies of each resin-printed online. I should have them in the next 1-2 weeks for testing.
 

Attachments

  • Baby-Bergheil-backplate mk3.zip
    1.7 KB · Views: 41

lobitar

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2018
Messages
271
Location
Denmark
Format
Multi Format
Not to be nitpicking, but I think most sellers don't know the difference betw. a PLATE-holder and a FILM-holder. So be careful. Plate-holders including film-inserts will probably be hard to find.
 
OP
OP

stamasd

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2023
Messages
25
Location
USA
Format
35mm
I agree that most sellers don't know the difference between a camera and a bulldozer. But as you may have noticed, I'm making my own now.
The one I've designed (and hopefully will come out right) is designed for versatility: holding a piece of ground glass for focusing, a plate, or cut film with a little extra accessory.
 

Romanko

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2021
Messages
889
Location
Sydney, Australia
Format
Medium Format
The holder that you have appears to be for a film pack. You can adapt it to hold a glass plate or a focusing screen.

The original plate holders are not that hard to find, they do appear on online auctions from time to time. There were no dedicated sheet-film holders, a glass plate holder with a film insert was used. The roll-film back is the most practical way of using a 4.5x6 cm plate camera, unless of course if you want to shoot glass plates.

Be warned that glass plate holders from different manufacturers are not interchangeable due to differences in the flange and length. Despite the name "Normalfaltz" there is no such thing as a standard holder.

There is a related thread on this forum on 9x12 holders:

9x12 Plate holders 1

Because there are so many variations of the holders I've measured & photographed what I currently own. It would be useful if anyone can add further variations and also the cameras they fit. These two fit a Rodenstock 9x12 and an Orion Werks 9x12 details Width 100mm, length 139mm note the...
www.photrio.com
 
OP
OP

stamasd

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2023
Messages
25
Location
USA
Format
35mm
Thank you for the information. As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I will be using it primarily for daguerrotypes, with my own custom made silver-plated copper plates. And later on I will be trying to make my own gelatin glass plates, again all custom. In a way, I'll be making my own standard.
 

Romanko

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2021
Messages
889
Location
Sydney, Australia
Format
Medium Format
I had a similar problem of finding a holder to fit my Icarette:

Plate holders for Icarette 500/2 and 551/2

I am trying to find 6.5 x 9 cm plate holders for my Zeiss Ikon Icarette 500/2 and 551/2. Does anyone know if Voigtländer Avus holders fit my cameras? I have several 9x12 cm folding cameras and know that holders from different manufacturers are not always interchangeable despite all being...
www.photrio.com
Voigtländer and Zeiss holders did fit my Ica so with some luck you might be able to use Zeiss Ikon type 665/3 holders on your camera:

For Sale - FS: Zeiss Ikon 665/3 Plate Holder w/Kodak Film Sheath

FS: A nice, used Zeiss Ikon 665/3 Plate Holder with a removable Kodak Film Sheath. For 6.5cm x 9cm plates, or 2 1/2" x 3 1/2" film. See Photos. I would characterize this as 'good user' condition, easily restored. Exterior cosmetics have wear, interior is quite clean. Dark slide has some finish...
www.photrio.com
 
OP
OP

stamasd

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2023
Messages
25
Location
USA
Format
35mm
Unfortunately that's the wrong size. 6.5x9cm, whereas my camera takes 4.5x6cm.
I have seen Voigtlander holders for sale in the 6x9cm and the 9x12cm, but the 4.5x6 is uncommon and not available anywhere I've looked
 

Romanko

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2021
Messages
889
Location
Sydney, Australia
Format
Medium Format
stamasd said:
Unfortunately that's the wrong size. 6.5x9cm, whereas my camera takes 4.5x6cm.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I overlooked the size. It is very uncommon (and tiny). There is always an option of 3D printing an adapter back for your camera as many people did for using 4x5 inch holders with their 9x12 cm cameras. There are several such projects on Thingiverse.
 
OP
OP

stamasd

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2023
Messages
25
Location
USA
Format
35mm

If you look above, I've made my own 3D version and attached the .stl files to this thread.
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot 2025-02-25 191242.png
    479.9 KB · Views: 34

Romanko

Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2021
Messages
889
Location
Sydney, Australia
Format
Medium Format

Jonathan-sv

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2023
Messages
70
Location
Uppsala
Format
Multi Format
I have a Goerrz Tenax that takes 4.5 x 6 cm glass plates. Have some plate holders and can send you a picture. They look like stainless steel and each one takes two plates, that must be rather thin. I don't think they were ever used. It was used mostly with film from a film pack holder, which I also have (along with a lot of the negatives).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…