Voightlander SW Heliar II 15mm on Leica M2- What am I doing wrong?

Meow7 · May 16, 2018

According to Ken Rockwell (not that I should listen to him)
"This is a really, really sharp lens. If you're not getting sharp results, you're doing something really wrong."
and other waxings on this lens... he loves it.

I am having trouble with this lens, I am pretty sure it's me, but maybe not. But, I can't see what could be wrong with the lens itself.

I have severe overexposure, I am using my Sekonic spot meter. If there is sun, it's blown, any light in the background, blown out. I've been keeping it at f8 as suggested and using the either the RF for focus or using the set it and forget it since the DOF is so massive. The first roll I think I used f16 more, they were actually less bad. One came out fairly well with out PP, it was in the shade.

Should I use an ND filter? K2 filter? The problem is though that if I add contrast I lose shadow detail and clipping. I am not sure what to do. Maybe it is the film? I can't see why though, I'm using Delta 100, and the images taken with another lens are fine. Should I just under expose 1 stop as a rule?

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Image 1 - no PP
Image 2 - PP, looks like crap
Image 3 - 125/f16 not too bad
Image 4 - not too bad with no PP

howardpan · May 16, 2018

Are you seeing the same exposure problem on your end to with other lenses? Such as a 35 mm? I think the problem is either with your light meter, your metering method, or your shutter. I assume your aperture blades are working correctly.

trendland · May 16, 2018

Meow7 said:
According to Ken Rockwell (not that I should listen to him)
"This is a really, really sharp lens. If you're not getting sharp results, you're doing something really wrong."
and other waxings on this lens... he loves it.

I am having trouble with this lens, I am pretty sure it's me, but maybe not. But, I can't see what could be wrong with the lens itself.

I have severe overexposure, I am using my Sekonic spot meter. If there is sun, it's blown, any light in the background, blown out. I've been keeping it at f8 as suggested and using the either the RF for focus or using the set it and forget it since the DOF is so massive. The first roll I think I used f16 more, they were actually less bad. One came out fairly well with out PP, it was in the shade.

Should I use an ND filter? K2 filter? The problem is though that if I add contrast I lose shadow detail and clipping. I am not sure what to do. Maybe it is the film? I can't see why though, I'm using Delta 100, and the images taken with another lens are fine. Should I just under expose 1 stop as a rule?

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Image 1 - no PP
Image 2 - PP, looks like crap
Image 3 - 125/f16 not too bad
Image 4 - not too bad with no PP

I can't see the problem - your exposures are just looking fine.
Be proud to own that Leica with 15mm lens. By the time : does Leica have an own 15mm lens today - I remember that case : more than 9500,- bucks. .....?

Of cause you'll get hard contrast even more by using 15mm outdoor.(caused from the angle) but that isn't solved with metering - that has to be solved in darkroom (via printing) if you own no darkroom it has to be solved via developing ( low contrast developing ) it is indeed the best way (solved before printing). Ok may be - you devolope your films not by yourselfe? The oportunity with filters is allways not the very best way.
By the way do you use a center filter with your 15mm?

with regards
PS : My 25mm voigtlander hasn't done any trouble - it was A L L W A Y S me....

trendland · May 16, 2018

Oh I forget : An example of simple lower contrast solution.
As you mentioned Delta100 there are 2 ways.
1) Delta 100 with EI ISO 25 (best developer is Ilford perceptol)
2) if you don't like to use a tripot:
Delta 400 with EI ISO 100 (same procedure with perceptol)
In addition (of a real lower contrast)
you'll get finest grain.
with regards

Meow7 · May 16, 2018

Perhaps it's not the best lens for outdoors... I think my exposures look like shite, not all of them, but some. I'm sure it's user error! I'm not seeing this problems on other lenses... I shot my Hexanon 90mm the same day, it was fine. I think by default I always err on the side of more light, easier to fix issues of slight over exposure than to fix issues of under exposure. It could for sure be my metering method, if I'm erring on more light. Also, the focus, everyone says put it at 1m and everything else will fall into place, if you are at 5.6 or 8. I got better focus at f16. Used to set my Rokinon 12mm at infinity and that worked the best. I'm going to play around. Take notes... Thanks! BTW what is a center filter? I do develop my own film, and print.

Meow7 · May 16, 2018

I developed in Xtol 1-1, 10:30

trendland · May 16, 2018

I forget : As you mentioned sharp lens!
The differente to original Leica lens 15mm is the following : Leica is total sharp at open lens (there is no need to adjust at F4.0 - it will make it only very little more sharp) but therefore you have to pay.
With voigtlander (just from my point) you can get the nearly same extraordernary brilliance (with sw) perhaps that is the issue Ken Rockwell told you ?
So you perhaps indeed should use a good tripot (allways done to landscape by many people) and just have a try with F5.6/F 8 and use Delta 100 (ISO25).
But pls. never show the redults to people who paid (a realy often issue) more than 20.000 bucks for original Leica lenses !!!
with regards

trendland · May 16, 2018

Meow7 said:
I developed in Xtol 1-1, 10:30

Fine you do your own developing !
I am sure you can simple solve the case with pull developing. (lower contrast is allways the result).
Don't forget : your meter is a real silly guy. If you shot against the sun he issn't with the intelligence of an ant - he can't know what against the sun means.
The same is with 90mm there your metering is the product of an average :
30% sky 70% dark green (threes, grass a.s.o) but with 15mm you sometimes have much more sky (and dark green..)
in some cases that contrast can be to much (with Delta in xtol 1+1) so even spot metering can't help?
with regards
PS : within 30years experience I make more failed exposures as you today ! But the case is : just some of this exposures have to be 100% correct- that is fine for me. So you should Not care so much!

Meow7 · May 16, 2018

I now remember why I don't do so much B&W landscapes any more. The 30% sky and 70% foliage (which has really no contrast) is problematic. I only use the spot meter on what I think is 18% grey. By saying do pull processing I should develop it for less time, so shadows develop but the highlights don't get a chance to go crazy.

howardpan said:
Are you seeing the same exposure problem on your end to with other lenses? Such as a 35 mm? I think the problem is either with your light meter, your metering method, or your shutter. I assume your aperture blades are working correctly.

Aperture blades seem to be fine and the camera has had a CLA not long ago. But, I do think my metering could be better. I took some with my 35mm in the same location and I'll see what they look like. I think perhaps it just doesn't handle these high contrast bright conditions. Onward.... Yes, 99.9% of images are not what we expected them to be, I like to put a lens through it's paces to see how it ticks.

4season · May 16, 2018

I think the lens, the camera and the light meter are likely fine but you are still learning how to properly use that spot meter. Tell me: In the backlit scene of the stream, where did you aim your light meter? To my eyes, that looks like difficult lighting, and if I had to guess, I'd think that there was easily a 7 stop difference between your shadow areas and the sky. You've managed to recover detail there during the scanning process, but it looks strange because tonal values in the sky and deep shadows are compressed. This isn't like shooting digital, where digital sensors are linear right up to the point where they clip.

Photo of the trellis looks pretty crisp by comparison and no wonder: Contrast in that scene looks far less challenging, perhaps as little as a 3-stop variance.

Meow7 · May 16, 2018

Definitely a user issue! I think I set the spotmeter on the reflections in the stream. I always try to find the middle grey in scene. I'm most likely not good at it. 7 stops is a lot to cover and have everything come out right. It was probably around 2:30 in a flood plain with some shade. I have read that this lens can blow highlights on digital with bright skies I think landscapes in B&W are challemging in general. I shot some more and we'll see when I developed it! Thank you for your expert insights.

Ko.Fe. · May 16, 2018

I see smudged corners on shots with infinity. Is this normal for 15mm? I had 17-40 zoom and it was doing it.
Rather than this I see nothing special. Delta 100 is finicky film. I would use Kentmere 100, TMAX100, Ilford ISO125 film and sunny 16 rule.
I'm not sure how spot meter works for very wide field of view. But I know what Sunny 16 works...

4season · May 16, 2018

Spot meters are great tools for quickly measuring the contrast of a scene: Besides shutter speeds and apertures, your meter likely also displays an "EV" (Exposure Value) number, and that can be super-helpful! Because with a change of 1 EV represents a 1-stop change in exposure. So by measuring not just a mid-gray area, but also the brightest important part of the scene and the deepest shadows where you hope to retain some tonality, those EV numbers will tell you very quickly what you need to do (or whether it's going to be "impossible" without more advanced technique). Beyond about a 5 EV contrast range (b&w negative film, somewhat less for other types) things get trickier.

trendland · May 17, 2018

4season said:
Spot meters are great tools for quickly measuring the contrast of a scene: Besides shutter speeds and apertures, your meter likely also displays an "EV" (Exposure Value) number, and that can be super-helpful! Because with a change of 1 EV represents a 1-stop change in exposure. So by measuring not just a mid-gray area, but also the brightest important part of the scene and the deepest shadows where you hope to retain some tonality, those EV numbers will tell you very quickly what you need to do (or whether it's going to be "impossible" without more advanced technique). Beyond about a 5 EV contrast range (b&w negative film, somewhat less for other types) things get trickier.

I've learned on the Pentax digital spotmeter (years ago) it was a nice tool but rather expensive during the 80th.
And I don't need a spotmeter any more.
With experience some are able to see the correct exposure without messuring.
With vegetation green I wonder allways how much more dark it realy is.
But you are right a spotmeter should show the max. light level into the sky (not into the sun) and the min. (for landscape it is allways vegetation in the shadow area). Next is to compare the contrast spread of the messured scene with the ability of the film.
I don't think the difference of Delta 100 is as much that Kentmere Tmax and others would solve the problem 100%.
There are many ways to rome.....
Filters, developement, darkroom corrections, lighting (more in use with Outdoor Portrait Shootings) ...with landscape you will use realy big lighting units to higher shadow areas (filmwork).
But at last it have to be the dificulty because : From where should the experience come (as from solving such problems).
with regards

Voightlander SW Heliar II 15mm on Leica M2- What am I doing wrong?

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