VIVIAN MAIER

TheFlyingCamera · Sep 2, 2021

mooseontheloose said:
I own the documentary. I always find it interesting that Maloof cannot comprehend, at all, at several points in the doc, as to why in the world she wouldn't want to show her work to people. I think that reflects a little about the younger generation's obsession with fame, but also ignores the fact that there are thousands of people out there taking photos all the time, and some of them, probably, have produced great work as well that has never seen the light of day. I'm not producing any great work at all, but as a single, introverted, middle-aged woman who has never shown her work publicly (except for one student group show), I certainly identify with Maier quite a lot. I think too, if we consider her background, that she probably would have felt out of her element, or maybe even a fraud in the art world (I know I certainly do). There's a certain privilege to being able to do art, whatever it is, full-time, and generally has been the preserve of the upper classes (mainly men, mainly white), or people who were funded by them, whether directly or somewhat adjacently. She was a nanny working for these people - how many other examples do we have of artists in these "lower" positions in society obtaining fame and fortune?

There's a difference between not exhibiting your work in a formal setting and refusing to show it to anyone, locking all your THOUSANDS of rolls of film in a storage facility. She was practically a hoarder when it came to her processed (and unprocessed) film. And according to that documentary, she was a hoarder in other aspects of her life.

It seemed to me that she was intentionally hiding her work as a control mechanism, not just a lack of ambition or a fear of rejection.

Alan Edward Klein · Sep 2, 2021

MurrayMinchin said:
Many of us photographers don't seek fame but still show our work locally from time to time. To never show anyone must be very rare.

As primarily a Nature photographer, I feel my connection to Nature is paramount to the way I see & work.

What intrigues me is how she could be so disconnected from people/relationships yet her photography of them displays she was very sensitive to their situations/emotions.

An enigma and one of the greats of photography.

Why do you say she was disconnected from people? She was a nanny and thus trusted with people's children. She must have been personable enough to get along with other families including kids and parents. I think too many people have made pronouncements about her personal life without even knowing her.

George Mann · Sep 2, 2021

TheFlyingCamera said:
she definitely had long-term mental health issues that went un-addressed.

It's easy to say that about someone who thinks or does things differently than the herd.

But my impression of her indicates that she was eccentric, like many great artists and thinkers (I am looking in the mirror at this point).

CMoore · Sep 2, 2021

She barely showed her negs to herself, and only had a very few printed.
Anybody on this forum has seen WAY more of her photos than she ever did.
That is what is "odd".
Maybe she enjoyed the camera way more than photos, although her Letters-Notes show she did contact a few people about printing (and showing.?) her stuff.
We will never know for sure i guess.

At this point, Mr Maloof owns the bulk of her negs. I am assuming the ownership has been settled at this point.?

CMoore · Sep 2, 2021

Alan Edward Klein said:
Why do you say she was disconnected from people? She was a nanny and thus trusted with people's children. She must have been personable enough to get along with other families including kids and parents. I think too many people have made pronouncements about her personal life without even knowing her.

Did you watch the movie.?
She has been accused of physically abusing (HARD) one of the girls many times, and violently Force-Feeding another.
She was more than "Passive-Aggressive".
She put a guy in the hospital with a concussion. He thought she was losing her balance and reached out to help her. She turned his lights out.

With her upbringing, odd personality, telling her charges to never trust men, unconventional, frumpy dress, and almost zero personal relationship..............it is not far fetched to speculate that she her self was "abused" and suffered the long term effects of that.
Again, the world will never know for sure

Pieter12 · Sep 2, 2021

Alan Edward Klein said:
Why do you say she was disconnected from people? She was a nanny and thus trusted with people's children. She must have been personable enough to get along with other families including kids and parents. I think too many people have made pronouncements about her personal life without even knowing her.

From what I've read, she wasn't very personable--beyond her charges and employers, she did not seem to have many acquaintances. That would preclude her work getting noticed by galleries or publishers since she didn't share it. And she probably did not want her employers to know she was photographing while performing her duties as a nanny. As I recall from one of the books about her, one of the boys she took care of talked about her taking them to odd neighborhoods and places that one would not expect a care-giver to take children for recreation or education. Also, she might have used photography as a way of relating to others, maybe the act of photographing was enough for her. She did not make or have much money in her adult life-- a probable reason for not printing her work.

TheFlyingCamera · Sep 2, 2021

George Mann said:
It's easy to say that about someone who thinks or does things differently than the herd.

But my impression of her indicates that she was eccentric, like many great artists and thinkers (I am looking in the mirror at this point).

Have you seen the documentary about her? The changes she went through in personality as she got older, to the point of living alone, in hoarder conditions, and refusing contact with the outside world, is more than just eccentric. Saying she had mental health issues is not a sign of disrespect or dismissal - it's a sad statement of fact and a shame she did not get help for those issues during her lifetime. Then she may not have died alone in poverty.

George Mann · Sep 2, 2021

TheFlyingCamera said:
Have you seen the documentary about her?

Yes, mostly the usual horse puckey the herd convinces themselves of concerning those who are different.

There is little that she has done that I or others like us haven't done.

Seeing and being different is not an illness!

MattKing · Sep 2, 2021

Patrick Robert James said:
When did that happen? Jeesh. I miss everything.

Here is his (@Bob Carnie)'s last post: [URL="https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/how-do-you-make-money-with-your-darkroom.85385/page-2#post-2314232"]How do you make money with your darkroom?[/URL]
I expect that several of the now Moderator deleted posts that followed were a precipitating factor.
I consider his departure to be very unfortunate, and would be happy if he returned.

Alan Edward Klein · Sep 2, 2021

Pieter12 said:
From what I've read, she wasn't very personable--beyond her charges and employers, she did not seem to have many acquaintances. That would preclude her work getting noticed by galleries or publishers since she didn't share it. And she probably did not want her employers to know she was photographing while performing her duties as a nanny. As I recall from one of the books about her, one of the boys she took care of talked about her taking them to odd neighborhoods and places that one would not expect a care-giver to take children for recreation or education. Also, she might have used photography as a way of relating to others, maybe the act of photographing was enough for her. She did not make or have much money in her adult life-- a probable reason for not printing her work.

A lot of photographers are loners. It's not a team hobby for many. Just leave your ear alone.

TheFlyingCamera · Sep 2, 2021

George Mann said:
Yes, mostly the usual horse puckey the herd convinces themselves of concerning those who are different.

There is little that she has done that I or others like us haven't done.

Seeing and being different is not an illness!

Living with so much stuff you've accumulated that it's a fire hazard and a risk to your own life and limb... that is an illness. At the very least its a sign of major depression. I'm not saying you need to be a social butterfly, or photograph the same things everyone else does... but hoarding is genuinely a disease.

Pioneer · Sep 2, 2021

I try hard not to look too closely and critically at others or their behaviors. Maybe it is a fear of seeing parts of myself, maybe I prefer to let others have their own privacy. I don't know.

What I do know is that this lady had an amazing eye. She was a very astute observer of the human condition and very good at following that up technically with her exposures. She may have "just" been a nanny but she was most certainly an amazingly competent photographer and certainly understood what Bresson was talking about when he discussed the "Decisive Moment." I study some of those photographs of hers and am absolutely amazed at her ability to focus you directly on the subject. I know the printers have been wonderfully capable of making beautiful prints but they had some very good negatives to work with.

CMoore · Sep 2, 2021

Pioneer said:
I try hard not to look too closely and critically at others or their behaviors. Maybe it is a fear of seeing parts of myself, maybe I prefer to let others have their own privacy. I don't know.

What I do know is that this lady had an amazing eye. She was a very astute observer of the human condition and very good at following that up technically with her exposures. She may have "just" been a nanny but she was most certainly an amazingly competent photographer and certainly understood what Bresson was talking about when he discussed the "Decisive Moment." I study some of those photographs of hers and am absolutely amazed at her ability to focus you directly on the subject. I know the printers have been wonderfully capable of making beautiful prints but they had some very good negatives to work with.

How do you think she metered, day in and day out............some variation of Sunny 16.?
Or did she use a hand-held.?

juan · Sep 2, 2021

I’m bitter about the documentary. Before, I could walk the streets with my TLR and people had no idea I had a camera and was shooting. Now I get people pointing and yelling, “ Hey, that’s one of those cameras that woman used.”

George Mann · Sep 2, 2021

TheFlyingCamera said:
but hoarding is genuinely a disease.

Hoarding is an eccentric disorder at best.

Don_ih · Sep 2, 2021

Entry to the "art world" for a woman when she would have been considering showing prints would not have been an easy task without connections. She had to have an actual job, so she had no time to go chasing after the life of an artist. Perhaps photography was an artistic outlet for her - one that she could accomplish with the time she had. As for her mental state, I doubt there's much that can be truly known at this point. Perhaps if she'd left journals or written lots of letters and had been open about it in that way, something could be said that wasn't based on hearsay. As it is, though, all that is truly available are the photos she took and that should be about all that matters to anyone. Human curiosity wins, of course, and people want to know about the person behind the camera. But anything anyone says is just a bit to the side of fiction.

TheFlyingCamera · Sep 2, 2021

juan said:
I’m bitter about the documentary. Before, I could walk the streets with my TLR and people had no idea I had a camera and was shooting. Now I get people pointing and yelling, “ Hey, that’s one of those cameras that woman used.”

That's still better than the alternative of having your Rollei called a Hasselblad because it's the only camera brand people know besides Canon and Nikon, which it is obviously neither of those. Or going out with a view camera and having people say "Isn't that just like what Ansel Adams used?" because it's the only photographer's name they know.

Don_ih · Sep 2, 2021

TheFlyingCamera said:
Or going out with a view camera and having people say "Isn't that just like what Ansel Adams used?" because it's the only photographer's name they know.

But that is what Ansel Adams used.....

MattKing · Sep 2, 2021

TheFlyingCamera said:
hoarding is genuinely a disease.

George Mann said:
Hoarding is an eccentric disorder at best.

On this site, this disagreement could get really hot, really quickly.
As I understand it hoarding is one form of obsessive compulsive behavior that, in its worst manifestation, is diagnosable as requiring medical intervention and treatment.
It manifests itself in ways similar to many eating disorders, and can result in much misery for the afflicted.

Pieter12 · Sep 2, 2021

Don Heisz said:
Entry to the "art world" for a woman when she would have been considering showing prints would not have been an easy task without connections. She had to have an actual job, so she had no time to go chasing after the life of an artist. Perhaps photography was an artistic outlet for her - one that she could accomplish with the time she had. As for her mental state, I doubt there's much that can be truly known at this point. Perhaps if she'd left journals or written lots of letters and had been open about it in that way, something could be said that wasn't based on hearsay. As it is, though, all that is truly available are the photos she took and that should be about all that matters to anyone. Human curiosity wins, of course, and people want to know about the person behind the camera. But anything anyone says is just a bit to the side of fiction.

Although she did attempt to sell some of her photos (not necessarily the street work). She had postcards made and sold, I think in her home town in France.

awty · Sep 2, 2021

She was still alive when people came and stole her stuff (thats the way she would of seen it). Her units were being bought up and contents haggled over while she was still alive. People doing this most likely new who she was (a cranky French woman). She must of leased the units and filled them and paid rent for a time. She hasnt given anyone the right to invade her privacy or profit from her possessions. Make out she had mental health issues doesnt make it any better. Many people live their lives like that, just because someone is different and wishes to maintain their individuality, doesn't make them crazy. Undoubtedly she was depressed in the end, why wouldnt she be, the rest is speculation. There are other documentaries and books.

Alan Edward Klein · Sep 2, 2021

I lot of people hoard. But don't take nice pictures.

Don_ih · Sep 2, 2021

Pieter12 said:
She had postcards made and sold, I think in her home town in France.

But hardly a break into the art world. That would have been seen as appropriate for someone with a hobby. All I was saying, though, is that it would have been an intimidating prospect for her at that time.

George Mann · Sep 2, 2021

Alan Edward Klein said:
I lot of people hoard. But don't take nice pictures.

I hoard cameras, and occasionally take nice pictures.

Pieter12 · Sep 2, 2021

awty said:
She was still alive when people came and stole her stuff (thats the way she would of seen it). Her units were being bought up and contents haggled over while she was still alive. People doing this most likely new who she was (a cranky French woman). She must of leased the units and filled them and paid rent for a time. She hasnt given anyone the right to invade her privacy or profit from her possessions. Make out she had mental health issues doesnt make it any better. Many people live their lives like that, just because someone is different and wishes to maintain their individuality, doesn't make them crazy. Undoubtedly she was depressed in the end, why wouldnt she be, the rest is speculation. There are other documentaries and books.

That is ALL speculation.

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