Vision3 Printing onto Vision 2383

Maxws · Jan 3, 2022

Hi,

I have adapted a colour enlarger to an SLR so that the negative in the enlarger can be reproduced 1:1 onto the film plane of the SLR, using this I am going to copy Vision3 500T stills processed as ECN-2 onto Vision 2383 to have projectable slides of the negatives (essentially I have created a slide copier with the adjustments of a colour enlarging head as bonus), as I have adapted the enlarger to a standard Nikon F mount I can mount a DSLR to the system which I could use to preview the image being projected onto the film plane, my question is how can I preview the inverted image that will result from the Vision 2383 as I don't want to have to waste film on test strips to get the colour and exposure right (similar to the RA-4 printing process), is there a way I can digitally emulate the 2383 film so I could colour balance and find the correct exposure digitally without ever having to make a test print, that way when I go to make the slides all the settings would already be known.

I also want to add that I will not be processing the Vision 2383 in ECP-2 and will likely do it in ECN-2 (or possibly C-41 if the ECN-2 offers poor results) as I'm unable to get a kit for ECP-2 and Kodak CD-2 is unavailable to me, meaning I can't mix up the first developer using Kodak's recipe. Even though the cross processing of the print stock will cause a shift in the film I would still want a preview even if it mean it was only accurate to the ECP-2 process.

mptcultist · Jan 3, 2022

Maxws said:
--snip--

sorry to only reply to part of your post, but processing ecp-2 print film in ecn-2 will probably result in mostly blank slides. as found in grainyvision's experiments on ecp-2 reversal(see here), cd-3 does not react with the dye couplers in ecp-2 film, and no image(or significantly reduced image) will result.

Maxws · Jan 3, 2022

I have read that discussion while trying to figure this out, anyways I just re-read it and I think you may have misinterpreted as he states "ECN2 developer works well with processing the film, 3 mins at 38c for the dev, 30s stop, 1 min bleach and 40s Fix, all at 38c.No need to use the bleach at 27c, that's just an industry spec due to the aggressive bleach eating way at the tyres on the processing racks!.
Here is an example of a contact print using 70Y and 5M on a colour head, exposure was 1s at a distance of around 4 inches from enlarger lens to film surface.
View attachment 263995"

And the resultant image seems to render promising results.

mptcultist · Jan 3, 2022

Maxws said:
--snip--

my bad then. maybe try looking at the curves on the datasheet? i don't have much advice otherwise, sorry.

Helge · Jan 3, 2022

Why not contact print? That is the “correct” way. Far simpler and more robust too.
You’ll have to do some tests, no way around it. Try to keep the exposures even. Remember you are trying to replicate a cine camera. That will also make it easier to just do a run without tests.
No thin or dense frames.

grainyvision · Jan 3, 2022

mptcultist said:
sorry to only reply to part of your post, but processing ecp-2 print film in ecn-2 will probably result in mostly blank slides. as found in grainyvision's experiments on ecp-2 reversal(see here), cd-3 does not react with the dye couplers in ecp-2 film, and no image(or significantly reduced image) will result.

CD-4 and CD-3 both react to form "an" image on ECP-2 film, BUT it is much less active than CD-2 and will produce far lower color saturation. My reports of blank slides are due to using the film in a color positive processing, and this film is extremely susceptible to dichroic fog to such an extreme extent, that the film is almost completely fixed by a developer containing high amounts of sulfite. This doesn't matter though in color negative processing since the dichroic fog produced is bleached and fixed away.

If you want to properly process ECP-2 film in order to make positive slides from ECN-2 film, you will definitely need the appropriate developer with CD-2. The bleach can be made using a simple ferricyanide formula, and any slightly acidic fixer is likely suitable. Sulfuric acid stop bath is likely not required but it is called for and using something like vinegar/acetic acid may produce slight color shifts due to uneven stopping of development through the emulsion layers. I've never tried to do actual printing onto 2383 film so I can't help with any of that actual process though.

Maxws · Jan 4, 2022

I understand that the CD-3 is much less active and will cause a loss in colour saturation but I'm in Australia and right now there is no way for me to obtain CD-2, moving on from that would it be better to process the film in C41 with the CD-4 opposed to ECN-2 and CD-3 in terms of colour saturation.
I also wanted to ask that even though there will be colour shifts will I be able to correct for these with filtration in the enlarger.

As to why I am not contact printing, I don't have access to a darkroom but in terms of the actual process if the enlarger is used to project the image 1:1 regardless if it is a contact print or through other means I don't see it having an effect on the end result.

Helge · Jan 4, 2022

A contact print will be sharper. You don’t need a full darkroom to do it.

Maxws · Jan 4, 2022

How would I do it without a darkroom?

brbo · Jan 5, 2022

You don't need _full_ darkroom

But, lets just focus on what you're really asking... If you read the print film's spec sheet, you will find out that you will be relatively close if you set your digital camera's WB to 3200K and balance your enlarger filters so that your ECN-2 film's orange mask is neutralised on the digital camera capture. Then make a small change towards less R filtration and a bit more B (as hinted in the spec sheet) and you have you starting point. Speed appears to be somewhere around ISO 6.

There's no way around making test exposures and since you are using incompatible developer... even more so.

Helge · Jan 5, 2022

Well, you are going to need a dark room, and an even, timed light source.
Easiest would probably be an enlarger with a timer. AFAIR the print film is ISO 1 - 6, so not super far off from paper.
You will need two glass panes to hold and press the film together, and you will need to lift the panes off the surface to not have drop shadow reflections from the enlarger board or easel.
One slight problem could be to align the film strips, but that could be done in a number of ways, including just careful placement with your fingertips, holding the edges of both strips.

brbo · Jan 5, 2022

Much easier to use what he has already. He'll deal with the "ultimate" sharpness when/if he gets colour balancing right...

Helge · Jan 5, 2022

brbo said:
Much easier to use what he has already. He'll deal with the "ultimate" sharpness when/if he gets colour balancing right...

Might as well get it right the first time around. Especially when it isn’t extra work. Aligning and getting perfect focus, would be just as much of a chore. And not something you nail once and for all.
The light source is probably tungsten/halogen judging by the blue tint of the print film shot in camera. Halogen would be a guess. Nice smooth spectrum.

brbo · Jan 5, 2022

Helge said:
Might as well get it right the first time around. Especially when it isn’t extra work. Aligning and getting perfect focus, would be just as much of a chore.

He doesn't have a darkroom and is not asking for help on contact printing. But, ok, I'll leave you two alone...

I wanted to do something similar a while ago, except that I was exposing C-41 onto BW film for RGB separation. With digital camera and a method I described above I got 95% there in two tries since digital camera will give you a very good approximation about filtration and exposure you need. And then you just substitute DSLR for SLR. Of course, you can also build a darkroom first if you want (it's a great thing to have) and only then learn that your colour developer isn't suitable for this...

I wasted half a meter of film and a couple of hours to get to this (recombined scans of separate R, G, B exposures on RPX25 with no additional edits):

(you can click on image to get to full resolution image; it's not that bad and I didn't even try hard to focus the negative)

miha · Jan 5, 2022

brbo said:
I wanted to do something similar a while ago, except that I was exposing C-41 onto BW film for RGB separation. With digital camera and a method I described above I got 95% there in two tries since digital camera will give you a very good approximation about filtration and exposure you need. And then you just substitute DSLR for SLR. Of course, you can also build a darkroom first if you want (it's a great thing to have) and only then learn that your colour developer isn't suitable for this...

I wasted half a meter of film and a couple of hours to get to this (recombined scans of separate R, G, B exposures on RPX25 with no additional edits):

(you can click on image to get to full resolution image; it's not that bad and I didn't even try hard to focus the negative)

Well, this is something! Thanks for sharing.

Maxws · Jan 5, 2022

I'll try the DSLR steps outlined and then when I'm happy with the balance switch it to the SLR and try to print, thanks for that (also I'm a bit confused when you say neutralise the mask for the DSLR, do you mean I should do this whilst adjusting the colour balance and then undo the neutralisation before switching to the SLR for the actual print).

Even though ECN-2 is the wrong process for this print film and will no doubt have an effect on the films colour balance, seeing others manage to get somewhat normal looking positives out of it suggests I will have some success to some degree at least and anyways like I said I just don't have a way of getting CD-2, though I'm thinking of contacting a few motion film labs around to see if they have the chemistry, maybe if I'm lucky I might be able to buy some who knows, though I doubt it its worth a shot.

I'm not sure why the contact printing is such a big deal, I've already stated I don't have a darkroom (or access to one) to do such a thing and I've invested into a working solution to do without one, I understand having one is nice but I just don't have that luxury right now furthermore I think that film alignment should be much easier to get right using an SLR.

Maxws · Jan 5, 2022

brbo said:
He doesn't have a darkroom and is not asking for help on contact printing. But, ok, I'll leave you two alone...

I wanted to do something similar a while ago, except that I was exposing C-41 onto BW film for RGB separation. With digital camera and a method I described above I got 95% there in two tries since digital camera will give you a very good approximation about filtration and exposure you need. And then you just substitute DSLR for SLR. Of course, you can also build a darkroom first if you want (it's a great thing to have) and only then learn that your colour developer isn't suitable for this...

I wasted half a meter of film and a couple of hours to get to this (recombined scans of separate R, G, B exposures on RPX25 with no additional edits):

(you can click on image to get to full resolution image; it's not that bad and I didn't even try hard to focus the negative)

I wanted to ask about this RGB separation, did you create separations for colour balancing if not why?

Also if I'm able to get results with this process I wanted to try what you did essentially but in reverse as in using black and white trichrome negatives triple exposed onto the print stock to get a full colour image but I'm still unsure about that as I have no idea how I would deal with registration of the images (I've had a few ideas using a dichroic prism but that process would become very expensive fast)

Helge · Jan 5, 2022

Maxws said:
I'll try the DSLR steps outlined and then when I'm happy with the balance switch it to the SLR and try to print, thanks for that (also I'm a bit confused when you say neutralise the mask for the DSLR, do you mean I should do this whilst adjusting the colour balance and then undo the neutralisation before switching to the SLR for the actual print).

Even though ECN-2 is the wrong process for this print film and will no doubt have an effect on the films colour balance, seeing others manage to get somewhat normal looking positives out of it suggests I will have some success to some degree at least and anyways like I said I just don't have a way of getting CD-2, though I'm thinking of contacting a few motion film labs around to see if they have the chemistry, maybe if I'm lucky I might be able to buy some who knows, though I doubt it its worth a shot.

I'm not sure why the contact printing is such a big deal, I've already stated I don't have a darkroom (or access to one) to do such a thing and I've invested into a working solution to do without one, I understand having one is nice but I just don't have that luxury right now furthermore I think that film alignment should be much easier to get right using an SLR.

Surely you can blackout a room to do the exposure and load the spiral for development.

brbo · Jan 5, 2022

Maxws said:
I'll try the DSLR steps outlined and then when I'm happy with the balance switch it to the SLR and try to print, thanks for that (also I'm a bit confused when you say neutralise the mask for the DSLR, do you mean I should do this whilst adjusting the colour balance and then undo the neutralisation before switching to the SLR for the actual print).

No. I meant that you should keep the filtering for SLR capture. But, I was reading the Vision 2383 spec sheet much too fast. It's obviously much more sensitive to blue light and much less to red as I thought. Could be that you will be about on the mark with 3200K light (but you should check the spec sheet).

brbo · Jan 5, 2022

Maxws said:
I wanted to ask about this RGB separation, did you create separations for colour balancing if not why?

I wanted to see how my colour negative inversion routines for Bayer sensors compared to true monochrome sensor digital "scanning". Since I'm poor, I can't afford a monochrome camera or pay for monochrome conversion so I used the best (and cheap) alternative - BW film.

Nicholas Lindan · Jan 5, 2022

The Leitz ELIDA was a contact printer for 35mm film https://www.shutterbug.com/content/...dia-and-natra-lowest-price-leica-collectibles

They do attract dust in use, keep a ZeroStat or equivalent at hand.

grainyvision · Jan 5, 2022

For developer chemistry, you're going to have a tough time without CD-2 if you want proper slides you can actually project with decent color balance and contrast. I'm unsure which would work better as a replacement, CD-3 or CD-4. I know CD-4 can produce a very contrasty image in C-41 developer. You likely will want to reduce look at the public ECP-2 developer formula and try to adjust from there. I'd use slightly more of the CD and a reduced amount of sulfite to increase contrast and saturation. It may ultimately be impossible to get a decent result without CD-2 though.

Note that printing onto ECP-2 film is not as simple as placing the films against each other and turning on the light. Exposure is fairly precise, and filtration is required even with the proper processing chemicals. I'm not really understanding why you want to do this though? Like what's the desired end result? Just a curiosity?

Your idea for "shooting" the film using DSLR scanning techniques is a great way to deal with no darkroom also. I've "shot" B/W interpositive slides using this technique once. Note you will have some losses of sharpness due to lens diffraction etc though.

Maxws · Jan 5, 2022

grainyvision said:
For developer chemistry, you're going to have a tough time without CD-2 if you want proper slides you can actually project with decent color balance and contrast. I'm unsure which would work better as a replacement, CD-3 or CD-4. I know CD-4 can produce a very contrasty image in C-41 developer. You likely will want to reduce look at the public ECP-2 developer formula and try to adjust from there. I'd use slightly more of the CD and a reduced amount of sulfite to increase contrast and saturation. It may ultimately be impossible to get a decent result without CD-2 though.

Note that printing onto ECP-2 film is not as simple as placing the films against each other and turning on the light. Exposure is fairly precise, and filtration is required even with the proper processing chemicals. I'm not really understanding why you want to do this though? Like what's the desired end result? Just a curiosity?

Your idea for "shooting" the film using DSLR scanning techniques is a great way to deal with no darkroom also. I've "shot" B/W interpositive slides using this technique once. Note you will have some losses of sharpness due to lens diffraction etc though.

Yea, I understand I will lose sharpness with my DSLR scanning technique but that is what I'm going to do and I've already bought everything anyways so I'm not going to drop it for a contact printing method especially when I don't have a darkroom, may I ask we leave the contact printing and sharpness debate from here as its not a real concern of mine right now, I'm more interested in the correct colour balance using the wrong developer for the ECP-2 film.

I'm going to try just a straight ECN-2 process to start, I'd be satisfied if I achieved slightly undersaturated results with a correct balance, regardless I think I really just have to try at this point, I'm just waiting on the film, chemicals and a few last bits of my enlarging setup to arrive in the mail.

Considering that the CD-3 in the ECN-2 will result in a low contrast and low saturation image is it possible that this could be used to make prints from a C-41 negative rather than a ECN-2 negative, just a thought.

As to why I'm doing this, I originally set out with a goal to make slide film cheaper on a per shot basis than say Ektachrome or Provia but now the goal has kind of changed to just get a projectable positive from this process as the economical sensibility of the project has slowly slipped away.

From this thread I've heard an ISO/ASA of 6 for the film, but from other sources I hear closer to 3 or 1 and given the limited latitude is anyone able to specify?

Maxws · Jan 5, 2022

Is there any way for me to mix up CD-2 from photographic chemicals, I know that sounds ridiculous.

grainyvision · Jan 5, 2022

Maxws said:
Yea, I understand I will lose sharpness with my DSLR scanning technique but that is what I'm going to do and I've already bought everything anyways so I'm not going to drop it for a contact printing method especially when I don't have a darkroom, may I ask we leave the contact printing and sharpness debate from here as its not a real concern of mine right now, I'm more interested in the correct colour balance using the wrong developer for the ECP-2 film.

I'm going to try just a straight ECN-2 process to start, I'd be satisfied if I achieved slightly undersaturated results with a correct balance, regardless I think I really just have to try at this point, I'm just waiting on the film, chemicals and a few last bits of my enlarging setup to arrive in the mail.

Considering that the CD-3 in the ECN-2 will result in a low contrast and low saturation image is it possible that this could be used to make prints from a C-41 negative rather than a ECN-2 negative, just a thought.

As to why I'm doing this, I originally set out with a goal to make slide film cheaper on a per shot basis than say Ektachrome or Provia but now the goal has kind of changed to just get a projectable positive from this process as the economical sensibility of the project has slowly slipped away.

From this thread I've heard an ISO/ASA of 6 for the film, but from other sources I hear closer to 3 or 1 and given the limited latitude is anyone able to specify?

You may be interested in my "GVCP" process I'm trying to invent with similar goals. Here's one of the results I had from the film, shot as a positive in camera. I'm currently facing great struggles formulating the first developer though. The film is very easily subject to fog, dichroic fog, and other color speed issues.

As far as synthesis of CD-2 goes, I would not attempt it. There is no simple synthesis route that I know of for any of the color developing agents in use today. CD-1 is available in very crude form in some hair dyes, but otherwise they are specialty chemicals. In a reversal process, the actual color developer used may not matter nearly as much though, since the color developing step is effectively to completion

Vision3 Printing onto Vision 2383

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