"viewing frame" ?

[Doc W]

I read somewhere a long time ago about using a cardboard cutout to determine what a particular lens sees. I am talking about large format only, obviously. I read that some photographers use a 4x5 cutout on a string, with knots tied in the string at different focal lengths. Thus, one could look at a scene with such a cutout and determine which lens would work best without having to set up.

Does anyone do this or is it just too geeky for words?

 

[Ian Grant]

I have a book published here in the UK during WWII in my darkroom (now locked for the night) on making various items that weren't available as most UK engineering companies had switched to war production, I think there something like you're after I'll check tomorrow.

Think about the sports finders on Speed, Crown and Super Graphics, they work extremely well even when using tilt, shift, rise/fall, with lenses of different focal length, So a rear eye- piece and a frame and attached to two pieces one sliding in the other to change FL, I would use one but have the rear sight and a front standard frame off Speed Graphics and could easily make one,

The reality is you very quickly learn to instinctively know which lens to use and also where to shoot from so what you're after is just a learning tool.

Ian

 

[Doc W]

Ian, thanks, you are probably right about it's usefulness. I am in a bit of a dilemma right now because of my bellows on my Wisner. It is the longer bellows intended for use mainly with lenses longer than mine, but it came with the camera when I bought it ages ago. It won't really take a 90mm lens without a bag bellows. This is a huge pain. I want to be able to use 90mm, 150mm and 210mm without switching bellows. I thought that such a viewing device might help me in a little in assessing the set up before getting down to business.

 

[NedL]

I made a simple matboard "viewing frame" to match the perspective of my 7x11 camera and lens. It was a little difficult to use because it depends on holding it at exactly the right distance in front of your eyes. I didn't use it much. What did help was this: I took my 28-70mm zoom on my slr, and noted the focal lengths that match the height and width of the 7x11 camera ( I just set up the 7x11 on my back porch, and then stood next to it with the slr and noted when the horizontal and vertical views matched what was on the ground glass ). Then for a few weeks, when I was out walking, I carried the slr and evaluated different views with it... and like Ian mentioned, eventually I got used to "seeing" the frame without using the slr. These days I just look foolish: I hold my arms out first left/right then up/down and I can get pretty close to what the 7x11 field of view will look like. Over time I've gotten better at holding my arms out at the right angles, and now I can frame a scene quite well.

Sometimes, if there is not much leeway in the view, I still use the slr lens first before I take the trouble of setting up the camera. On multiple occasions, by doing this I've avoided setting up the big camera when it just wasn't going to work. If I'm going to be close to the car, I usually take the slr with me along with the big camera.

 

[dasBlute]

I still use one, a piece of old plastic from some instant film... I don't always use it but when I do,
I put the gear down and walk around, it's nice to 'crop in the field'. It has knots at every 50mm,
but I never need them, the distance to your eye is the focal length, so pretty easy to get close...

 

[macfred]

John Sexton about THE VIEWING FRAME: A GREAT VISUALIZATION TOOL http://www.johnsexton.com/newsletter12-2010.html#anchor07
http://www.johnsexton.com/newsletter12-2010.html#anchor07

 

[esearing]

someone on ebay sells a LF Zoom Viewfinder which gives you frames from 65-150 if I remember correctly. I personally use one for 35mm from leica and do the mental adjustments.

 

[wiltw]

I have a program which gives a Field of View size calculation for various formats. I realized that (from high school geometry and trigonometry!) the angular calculation applies regardless of distance, so if I simply asked for FOV at 24" or 12" or at 6". it would be proportional to the actual shooting distance. So I just prepared a chart with 135 format popular lens focal lengths and for 4x5 format popular lens focal lengths.

As you can see, it is challenging to create a viewer usable at the wide range of FL for a single distance from the eye!

I chose 24" to start because that is the distance from my eye to my extended arm holding a frame in my fingertips, a somewhat repeatable distance without a ruler.

 

[ic-racer]

I read somewhere a long time ago about using a cardboard cutout to determine what a particular lens sees. I am talking about large format only, obviously. I read that some photographers use a 4x5 cutout on a string, with knots tied in the string at different focal lengths. Thus, one could look at a scene with such a cutout and determine which lens would work best without having to set up.

Does anyone do this or is it just too geeky for words?

What I do is actually way geeky compared to that. Since I use only a certain few focal lengths that give just about the same angle of view on all formats. And since I have been using those same focal lengths for 30+ years, I know just where to hold my hands with the thumbs together, like they show directors in the movies framing shots.

 

[AgX]

I use a KMZ turret finder. It is not precise in LF aspect ratio, but nevertheless gives you some idea.

 

[LouisGR]

Theo Kisselbach recommends carrying an empty slide mount with you. Look through the mount with one eye. If you hold it 5 cm from your eye, you see the field of view of a 50mm lens; at 9 cm you see what 90mm lens sees, and so on.

This is from his 1977 book on the Leica CL [Hove Camera Foto Books, ISBN 0 85242 570 8]

The link posted by macfred above provides similar recommendations from John Sexton.

Cheers

Louis

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I use one. It's a great way to suss out compositions.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

If you don't mind spending the money you could get a "director's viewfinder". All have zoom and most have a way to adjust aspect ratios. Some are fairly inexpensive and others are extremely pricey.

 

[Sirius Glass]

For all formats, I look through the viewfinder, then move in, move back, move to another location or change the lens.

 

[Old-N-Feeble]

^^^ That's easy if the camera has a viewfinder but a little more cumbersome with ground glass focusing.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Another nice accessory is a viewing filter. I have one sandwiched between two pieces of clear plexi. Great way to see the image in monotone, which colours merge, helping one decide if a filter is necessary.

 

[John Wiegerink]

^^^ That's easy if the camera has a viewfinder but a little more cumbersome with ground glass focusing.

Exactly!

 

[Vaughn]

I have always used ic-racer's methods with my fingers. It seems the more sure I am of the image I want, the more likely I'll set the tripod up in the right place the first time. If I end up moving the camera all over the place trying to find the image, it is often because I missed it and/or it is not there. But sometimes I am pleasantly surprised. Only have one lens per format helped me a lot.

 

[Steve Goldstein]

One nice thing about using a viewing frame is that you can park your gear and walk around with just the frame, then (usually) drop it on the ground as a place marker once you've found where you want to set up your gear. This is less important if you're using handheld equipment, but when you're tripod-bound it can save a lot of shlepping.

My viewing frames are made from stiff plastic about 1mm thick and one lives in each photo pack or bag. This is a lot more durable than using a piece of matboard. I learned very quickly that I should round the corners so they don't get caught on things.

 

[Doc W]

This is all very helpful, guys. Thanks a lot.

 

[Leigh B]

I read somewhere a long time ago about using a cardboard cutout to determine what a particular lens sees. I am talking about large format only, obviously. I read that some photographers use a 4x5 cutout on a string, with knots tied in the string at different focal lengths. Thus, one could look at a scene with such a cutout and determine which lens would work best without having to set up.
Does anyone do this or is it just too geeky for words?

There are several variations on this theme, all of which work if used properly.

A viewing device similar to the cutout you described is available commercially.
The string has multiple knots at calibrated distances from the tip of your nose.

Graflex provided masks for their press camera viewfinders that were calibrated for different focal lengths. These gave accurate framing, but changing from one to another to determine appropriate FL would be inconvenient.

The fanciest device I know of is the Linhof Optical Multifocus Viewfinder.
It's an optical device with adjustable focal length and a calibrated FL scale.

- Leigh

 

[Alan9940]

For my first 30 years or so with LF cameras, I used a viewing filter to both approximate composition and to evaluate tonal merges (B&W work.) Time marches on and technology can lend a hand; nowadays I use an app called "Mark II Artist's Viewfinder" (http://www.artistsviewfinder.com/) on my iPhone. Once you've got all parameters (not many) keyed in, it provides a very accurate view of any given focal length lens. I find this a godsend when evaluating scenes for shooting with my 8x10. Much easier to place my phone into various positions vs the camera/lens/tripod setup!

 

[LAG]

Does anyone do this or is it just too geeky for words?

I used to carry different cardboards cut in different sizes and formats, and two slide mount (135 which is always in my wallet), however now the 120 6x6 mount slide - which gave me the square "helping-view" -, has been replaced with a simple square neutral density filter (ah, and I used to use my fingers too, until I discovered that with one hand I can hold a matboard (or a filter) to frame and the other hand to take measurements at the same time. It's a pity we have only two hands ... )

I read that some photographers use a 4x5 cutout on a string, with knots tied in the string at different focal lengths. Thus, one could look at a scene with such a cutout and determine which lens would work best without having to set up.

In my opinion, that "4x5 and tied" limits you somehow ... (although it is good to have the option of hooking it so as not to lose it / & it is also good to use a fixed format first as a starting point & tested with all your focal lenghts doing different marks in your camera - which also gives you some working-speed) ... but in the end you will need the freedom of seeing everything with different formats and from different points of view.

Anyway Doc W, after a long time of work, you can already see the framed scene without frame, practice make perfect!

All the best!

 

[Doremus Scudder]

I've been at it for 35+ years and I still find my viewing frame a wonderful tool. I have a couple of the old Zone VI viewing filters that I carry regularly. Not only are they helpful finding camera position and framing, but I've learned to extrapolate the focal length lens I'll need from the distance the filter is from my eye when I've got the framing I want. I am usually spot on. When I miss, it's only by a little; i.e., I just grab the next longer/shorter lens from the one I chose first.

I almost always have decided 1) if I want to make an image at all, 2) where exactly to set up my tripod, including height, 3) what lens I'll likely use, 4) what movements I need to consider, 5) what filters I may need before I begin unpacking my kit, and 6) what cropping I want (using a finger/card to alter the aspect ration of the viewing opening). All this from the viewing filter. Practice with the viewing filter makes perfect

About your Wisner not taking shorter lenses well: Will it take recessed lensboards? My Zone VI (last model) would not, but I modified the front standard a bit to accept recessed Technika boards, which allowed me to use the 90mm with limited movements. A bag bellows may allow you to use up to 210mm lenses, so if you have/get one, then that's the bellows you may keep mounted most of the time. With my Wista SW (like a DX but with interchangeable bellows) I keep the bag bellows mounted and carry the regular bellows for the rarer times I need 240mm or longer.

Best,

Doremus