Very strange fine-lined, wavy, marks on film?

[What About Bob]

The Pan F Plus stock I have left which has worked fine so far is shown in this photo. Presumably your batch is newer as recently ordered?

The batch number on one of the boxes I was able to salvage says "67BPN1C01 /01 JUL 2021"

 

[What About Bob]

Not the first time such flocks of sinoidal scratches have been reported for Ilford films:

On the backside of the film.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/wavy-scratches-on-base-side-of-ilford-hp5-120.107301/

https://www.largeformatphotography....d-help-with-film-issue-(consistent-scratches)

Oh wow. So I am not the only one.

 

[pentaxuser]

Do the marks show up in either a scan of the negatives or an enlarged optical print of the negatives?

In addition to what Matt has asked, are the scratches as uniform as the top sine wave you showed us i.e. exact sine waves? If they are can anyone think of what might cause waves with a rock-steady amplitude to form either in a camera or while processing? It just seems such an unusual wave for it to be actual in camera or in tank processing

As the waves run the whole length of the film it suggests something that is "there" for the whole film or the whole film has had to pass whatever causes it but if the camera is the same as was used on the unmarked film then either it is a defect/damage that occurred prior to you getting the film or something is now in the camera that wasn't there before

It might pay you to show the film dealer what you have and ask if any other customer has reported such problems with that batch of films .

Ultimately contact with Ilford might be needed

pentaxuser

 

[AgX]

Oh wow. So I am not the only one.

Yes, but the cases I hinted at were from 2013.

 

[What About Bob]

I haven't printed them from my enlarger yet but I will soon. The only scanner I have is a Canon flat-bed scanner, which I did scan a strip of 120 with, earlier today. I didn't see any of the lines from the negative but then again a flat-bed scan wasn't really the best as far as quality went. I don't have a film scanner.

 

[What About Bob]

In addition to what Matt has asked, are the scratches as uniform as the top sine wave you showed us i.e. exact sine waves? If they are can anyone think of what might cause waves with a rock-steady amplitude to form either in a camera or while processing? It just seems such an unusual wave for it to be actual in camera or in tank processing

As the waves run the whole length of the film it suggests something that is "there" for the whole film or the whole film has had to pass whatever causes it but if the camera is the same as was used on the unmarked film then either it is a defect/damage that occurred prior to you getting the film or something is now in the camera that wasn't there before

It might pay you to show the film dealer what you have and ask if any other customer has reported such problems with that batch of films .

Ultimately contact with Ilford might be needed

pentaxuser

Yes they are, they are repetitious throughout the length of the film.
I would think that any material trapped inside of a film back would cause a more linear scratch. If the material moved about while the film was winding then the scratch wouldn't be continuous.

 

[pentaxuser]

Yes they are, they are repetitious throughout the length of the film.
I would think that any material trapped inside of a film back would cause a more linear scratch. If the material moved about while the film was winding then the scratch wouldn't be continuous.

So what would you conclude from this observation and what do you feel you need to do now as with all respect to Photrio it would look to me that Photrio is unlikely to provide an answer despite having tried its best

pentaxuser

 

[pentaxuser]

Not the first time such flocks of sinoidal scratches have been reported for Ilford films:

On the backside of the film.

https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/wavy-scratches-on-base-side-of-ilford-hp5-120.107301/

https://www.largeformatphotography....d-help-with-film-issue-(consistent-scratches)

What if any was the conclusion to these threads and what if any was the response of Ilford, assuming it was asked to contribute

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[What About Bob]

What I got out of those threads is that Ilford hasn't come across anything indicating to them that there were any problems. Along with one poster giving examples of user errors, which I am not so sure about. Before these two rolls of film and when I used to be a photographer, a little over 20 years ago, I had never come across scratches like this, never came across scratches period to my knowledge when handling film, Maybe a crescent kink, once in a blue moon but never a scratch and all I ever worked with was stainless steel tanks and reels. Plus the event of having the film separate from the backing roll, possibility of happening - I don't doubt that it could happen and might lead to said scratches but what are the odds of that happening twice, one after the other, or more times in a close time period? You would have to be pretty unlucky for that to happen on a frequent basis.

I didn't see any notable resolve/update for the problem either. The good news, and it did feel a little bit relieving, was that the marks would not show up in a print or scan. This made sense even though I used a flat-bed scanner to scan a 120 strip and the quality from doing the scan this way will be inferior to a film scanner. I saw no lines. I am taking it that this would also apply to an enlarger based exposure? How about a condenser based enlarger that would have the possibility of enhancing negative defects a little more? I will not know this until I try this for myself and I am looking into printing this coming weekend and I can post back with the results to that.

Contacting Ilford would be the thing to do but from what was stated back then I am not sure if my voice would be as helpful because of what I have all ready said above. Not only my voice but others, having the same problems, would be more power to the punch.

My intention was to ask questions and see if anyone else had went through this and had any ideas as to what it could be. Is anyone from Ilford still on this board? I would be happy to let them know about this.

 

[What About Bob]

The FP4 Plus negative that I processed hours ago came back clean. I don't see any scratches/lines.

I will be developing a second FP4 Plus negative later on tonight.

 

[MattKing]

This appears to me to be an irregularity in the film substrate.
It isn't necessarily the case that it will interfere with the main task of the film - providing a negative that you can turn into a print. But it might interfere, so the concern is warranted.
I wonder if there is anyone out there trying to make 120 transparencies out of these films, and whether those transparencies are functionally damaged by this irregularity.

 

[kevs]

<snipped>

After developing my rolls: On the Pan F Plus rolls I notice that they both have, what I would describe as, multiline, thin wavy lines going through the whole length of the film. They do resemble scratch marks that almost resemble what a sine wave would look like but a lot more shallower. I have worked with sound files for a long time and that caught my eye. These marks are visible at both viewing the negatives at an angle and looking dead-on at the negative up against a light source.

At first I thought that maybe it could have been a drying issue. I removed one of the negative strips from my sleeve and dampened a blank spot, between frames, with a tiny drop or two of distilled water from a clean pipette, and ever-so-gently wiped that part down with a very fine and clean cloth. That didn’t remove the marks. Next I went to inspect my camera’s film back. Nothing I could find that would cause multiple lines. My thinking is if the camera was responsible then the lines would be linear and not wavy. If a particle of something bounced around in the magazine then the scratch wouldn’t be a wave nor a perfect line for that matter. It would be more like a periodically spaced kind of scratch/mark.

<snipped>

Hi What About Bob,

I had this problem a few years back; I found odd, wavy, scratch-like lines on my FP4 Plus 120 negatives; they were down the entire length of the film and were so wavy the could not have been caused by the camera. After contacting Harman's then-APUG contact Simon (who was also a director), I returned the negatives to Harman Technology's QC department, who examined them. The problem turned out to be flow lines in the base material that had been there before coating. Harman assured me the flow lines wouldn't show up on a print but I've never printed those negatives, I just repeated them while I still could. Shame because they are decent images; maybe I'll revisit them one day. Still they did send me a nice box of replacement films to use!

I think Harman still have a contact on this site; it might be worthwhile sending their contact a PM or posting a brief note in the Ilford sponsor's forum. Otherwise, nip onto their website and send them an e-mail and be prepared to give emulsion batch numbers, expiry dates, etc. It's the only time I've found problems with Ilford films or papers.

Cheers,
kevs

 

[AgX]

What if any was the conclusion to these threads and what if any was the response of Ilford, assuming it was asked to contribute

We do not know the outcome... I you read that Apug thread, you will see though that Simon Galley chimed in promising a final statement, that never came..

 

[pentaxuser]

Hi What About Bob,

After contacting Harman's then-APUG contact Simon (who was also a director), I returned the negatives to Harman Technology's QC department, who examined them. The problem turned out to be flow lines in the base material that had been there before coating. Harman assured me the flow lines wouldn't show up on a print but I've never printed those negatives, !

I think Harman still have a contact on this site; it might be worthwhile sending their contact a PM or posting a brief note in the Ilford sponsor's forum. Otherwise, nip onto their website and send them an e-mail and be prepared to give emulsion batch numbers, expiry dates, etc. It's the only time I've found problems with Ilford films or papers.

Cheers,
kevs

So it appears that Harman admitted it was a manufacturing defect but not one that would show up on a print. Did Harman say why a defect that can be seen on a negative will not show up on a print as I cannot work out how Harman could have been so sure and secondly did Harman say if this kind of defect was there rarely/often/ all of the time but wasn't something Harman concerned itself about because there was no way this could show up in a print?

If you have given us everything that Harman said then frankly its response is worrying

pentaxuser

 

[AgX]

So it appears that Harman admitted [in 2013] it was a manufacturing defect...

Why then the same artefact (my assumption!) appears again now?

Or are the OP's films from that same stock?

 

[Tom Kershaw]

My Delta 100 film that shows the problem is from July 2021 stock, not old 2013 stock.

 

[AgX]

So we got two cases (the OP's one and yours), concerning different films from similar period :

Pan F and Delta 100
type 120 , dated July 2021.

 

[pentaxuser]

Isn't it time that those with the defect wrote to Harman quoting their own relevant info and making reference to this thread and the earlier thread in which Harman admits to a problem?

We need to dispel the idea that there is a regular watching brief here from Ilford that responds whenever there is a "complaint" or request for information from it

pentaxuser

 

[What About Bob]

Isn't it time that those with the defect wrote to Harman quoting their own relevant info and making reference to this thread and the earlier thread in which Harman admits to a problem?

We need to dispel the idea that there is a regular watching brief here from Ilford that responds whenever there is a "complaint" or request for information from it

pentaxuser

I am sure people will be notifying Ilford about it. I will be doing so a little later today.

 

[What About Bob]

Hi What About Bob,

I had this problem a few years back; I found odd, wavy, scratch-like lines on my FP4 Plus 120 negatives; they were down the entire length of the film and were so wavy the could not have been caused by the camera. After contacting Harman's then-APUG contact Simon (who was also a director), I returned the negatives to Harman Technology's QC department, who examined them. The problem turned out to be flow lines in the base material that had been there before coating. Harman assured me the flow lines wouldn't show up on a print but I've never printed those negatives, I just repeated them while I still could. Shame because they are decent images; maybe I'll revisit them one day. Still they did send me a nice box of replacement films to use!

I think Harman still have a contact on this site; it might be worthwhile sending their contact a PM or posting a brief note in the Ilford sponsor's forum. Otherwise, nip onto their website and send them an e-mail and be prepared to give emulsion batch numbers, expiry dates, etc. It's the only time I've found problems with Ilford films or papers.

Cheers,
kevs

Thank you kevs. I will let them know about this. I will find out if these lines print through or onto the paper. I have a condenser enlarger so I am curious about this one. I will be printing over the weekend, Saturday.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

I've just printed some negatives from the film in question and the lines do not seem to appear in the printed image, 20"x16" paper from 6x7cm negatives. However, none of the negatives have clear sky or other similar areas.

 

[Willyekerslike]

My take from this and other similar threads is as follows..

Harman explained the appearence of the wavy lines

Harman stated the line would not apear on a darkroom print

The OP has scanned a frame with the wavy line and it has not apeared on the scan

It would seem to to me that the film is good for its intended purpose and so far no problems have been reported on final prints.

Also if the film is proved in the end to be at fault Harman will replace it for free

 

[AgX]

Also if the film is proved in the end to be at fault Harman will replace it for free

Not all photographers will be happy with that.

From all we know Kodak Alaris knowingly let cutomers buy faulty films hoping that not too many turn out bad.
I hope that Harman is sure about such base not effecting the transmissive image in any way, and that this turns out a storm in a glass of water.

 

[What About Bob]

I have sent a note to Ilford regarding this.

 

[What About Bob]

I just processed another roll of FP4+ and It looks like the FP4+ rolls are not affected.

I will say that Pan F+ and FP4+ develops beautifully in Pyrocat HD.