Very positive news from Kodak: Strong increasing demand - new investment

pentaxuser · Nov 23, 2019

Henning Serger said:
Yes, and there have been (and are) at least another three converting facilities / manufacturers in Europe cutting and packaging Fujifilm RA-4 paper.

Best regards,
Henning

Now that you have clarified Harman's role in cutting Fuji RA4 and others as well, do you have any idea why KA does not use Harman or these other converting facilities in Europe for cutting paper? It looks like a ready-made solution

Thanks
pentaxuser

Jarrett · Nov 24, 2019

Gold 200 better stay around then!!

MattKing · Nov 24, 2019

pentaxuser said:
Now that you have clarified Harman's role in cutting Fuji RA4 and others as well, do you have any idea why KA does not use Harman or these other converting facilities in Europe for cutting paper? It looks like a ready-made solution

Thanks
pentaxuser

Cutting and boxing and labeling for cut sheets is potentially very expensive per box if the volumes are low.

Henning Serger · Nov 24, 2019

pentaxuser said:
Now that you have clarified Harman's role in cutting Fuji RA4 and others as well, do you have any idea why KA does not use Harman or these other converting facilities in Europe for cutting paper? It looks like a ready-made solution

Thanks
pentaxuser

Yes, I know the reasons and current challenges.
But I have already written it here several times, and it looks like it is needed to write it another time. I cannot talk about it because of an NDA.
So please let's finally come back to the original topic: Increasing film demand and additional investments in production capacities.

Best regards,
Henning

dutchsteammachine · Nov 24, 2019

Yes, lets!

Has Kodak told you when Kodachrome 25 and 64 will come back?

- shot

dutchsteammachine · Nov 24, 2019

But Seriously,

I am curious what Kodak thinks internally of CineFilm and silbersalz35 (https://silbersalz35.com/) , who repackage Vision3 stock on 35mm and 120 rolls. Cinefilm removes the remjet layer so it can be processed in C-41, silbersalz35 does not but they can develop your film in ECN-2. I imagine there has to be some kind of mutually beneficial relationship, otherwise Kodak would not supply Cinefilm with medium format Vision3 stock? which I imagine Kodak only makes on a special-order basis due to its rarity in production nowdays.

I am also wondering if it would be possible for Fuji to bring back their Eterna cine stock?

Jarrett · Nov 24, 2019

I hope we finally get some scanners with updated technology. People are literally paying thousands for old scanners that require windows XP.

dutchsteammachine · Nov 24, 2019

Jarrett said:
I hope we finally get some scanners with updated technology. People are literally paying thousands for old scanners that require windows XP.

Yes, like here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/SALE-NIKON...NM-FH-835M-Serviced-1yr-WARRANTY/223740092672

I am afraid these amazing scanners won't last forever... I think many coolscans are starting to show their age after 15 years of hard, professional work.

There are several modern 35mm/120 scanners on the market, but all are a bit meh, lower resolution and quality (Breaking after a few years.)
I don't think anything as high quality as the coolscans will ever be made again, not something that will last two decades.

Tom Kershaw · Nov 24, 2019

My Coolscan 9000 is still working fine but I'm careful not to overuse it. I've had it from new in 2006 though so I know its history over the last 13 years.

Jarrett · Nov 24, 2019

Sony have the patent for the Minolta Dimage scanners. They obviously isn't going to use it so they should sell it.

lantau · Nov 25, 2019

pentaxuser said:
Now that you have clarified Harman's role in cutting Fuji RA4 and others as well, do you have any idea why KA does not use Harman or these other converting facilities in Europe for cutting paper? It looks like a ready-made solution

Thanks
pentaxuser

I remember Foto Impex explaining a while ago why they don't sell cut sheet Kodak paper any longer.

They used to be able to buy master rolls and cut them on their finishing equipment. They do the same with their own b/w paper, after all.

But eventually Kodak did not sell them any more master rolls, and using the normal rolls, which everyone can buy, is not an option. Either because they don't work technically, or it is too expensive. They didn't say.

pentaxuser · Nov 25, 2019

lantau said:
I remember Foto Impex explaining a while ago why they don't sell cut sheet Kodak paper any longer.

They used to be able to buy master rolls and cut them on their finishing equipment. They do the same with their own b/w paper, after all.

But eventually Kodak did not sell them any more master rolls, and using the normal rolls, which everyone can buy, is not an option. Either because they don't work technically, or it is too expensive. They didn't say.

Thanks Lantau. So it would appear that for reasons not given by Kodak it is Kodak who are responsible for preventing Foto Impex from solving the cut sheet problem. I wonder if the same refusal explains why Harman cannot cut sheets

It would appear that Henning Serger knows the reason why no cutting of sheets takes place and may never take place or so I interpreted from his # 54 but he cannot tell us due to an NDA.

NDAs have a chequered history of late in terms of what they have been used for which may be account for some of my prejudice but I am trying to think of reasons why none of my questions on this subject can be answered and I am failing to come up with anything that might cause Kodak harm.

It may be that as things stand Kodak's position is that it sees no demand for cut sheets that would repay the cost of cutting and the price Kodak believes it would have to charge.

Even as I write this I realise that I have already started down the road to hell - that road being defined as a road that takes the traveller nowhere. It would appear to be the time to stop asking questions for which I will not get answers

It is time instead to rejoice in Kodak's improving fortunes and perhaps rejoice in the joke where the person who has the answers and is being pressed for those answers says to the persistent questioner: " I could tell you the reasons but I would then have to kill you or get you to sign a NDA .

Curiosity unsatisfied but remaining alive is better than curiosity satisfied and dead. NDA's must be like the chains attached to the ghost of Jacob Marley in the famous novel "A Christmas Carol" written by Charles Dickens. These chains were a terrible burden for all eternity.

So here's to better times and Tiny Tim's good health in what I shall call "Christmas Future"

God bless us, one and all

pentaxuser

MattKing · Nov 25, 2019

If I understand things correctly, Kodak Alaris was also having difficulty meeting supply demands for RA4 roll paper in certain markets. That could explai why Fotoimpex can't get their hands on any master rolls right now - the big, centralized photofinishers in Europe may have priority.
The situation may have been contributed to or complicated by Tetenal's situation - I believe they are/were a large distributor of Kodak RA4 roll paper.
It may be something as simple as Kodak Alaris being owed a lot of money for roll paper that they supplied but haven't been paid for - that can really gum up supply channels!

pentaxuser · Nov 25, 2019

Thanks Matt You may be right or you may not but these reasons sound very plausible. If you are right then I cannot think of any reason why what you have said in the first 2 paragraphs should be sensitive enough to be covered by silence due to a NDA. The reason in the last paragraph may be more sensitive I concede but I am sure that this kind of contract difficulty between Kodak and any commercial roll paper cutter user could be covered by some statement such as Kodak trying to reach a "commercial agreement that satisfies both/all parties"

Currently things are so numb and vague as to be reminiscent of the state we'd all be in after several hours outdoors in a tee-shirt in a Canadian winter

pentaxuser

lantau · Nov 25, 2019

MattKing said:
If I understand things correctly, Kodak Alaris was also having difficulty meeting supply demands for RA4 roll paper in certain markets. That could explai why Fotoimpex can't get their hands on any master rolls right now - the big, centralized photofinishers in Europe may have priority.
The situation may have been contributed to or complicated by Tetenal's situation - I believe they are/were a large distributor of Kodak RA4 roll paper.
It may be something as simple as Kodak Alaris being owed a lot of money for roll paper that they supplied but haven't been paid for - that can really gum up supply channels!

Matt, I think Foto Impex haven't been selling that paper for at least two or three years? I don't really have such a good sense of time, but it feels correct. It doesn't seem to me that this was related to Tetenals problems. At most some early signs, perthaps? Maybe KA couldn't be bothered to organise the shipping of wide/master rolls from Colorado for a single customer. And I don't think that Foto Impex bought them in twenty foot container lots.

A year ago I bought a box of cut sheet from Nordfoto, which they cut themselves from the normal (88m?) rolls, which they also sold. First the cut sheet disappeared and around the time of the Tetenal insolvency the normal 88m rolls disappeard from that shop and it hasn't returned, since. You can buy Fuji in a bewildering variety, though.

This was the only place in Germany from which an ordinary consumer could buy Kodak RA4 rolls and even cut sheet, as far as I know. With my cut sheet running out I bought a single roll from AG-Photographic in the UK and shortly after they showed no availability either. (Tetenal?) I just checked to see that they having the full range in stock, again.

cmacd123 · Nov 25, 2019

pentaxuser said:
I cannot think of any reason why what you have said in the first 2 paragraphs should be sensitive enough to be covered by silence due to a NDA.

Kodak's supply situation might very well have a bearing on what price Fuji can charge. In theory Agfa Belgium could get back into the paper business if their was a great business case, as could the folks who bought the coating line from Agfa Germany. so yes, I can imagine that details are commercially sensitive and consultants would be under NDA. Their are other aspects like demand trends that also may be commercially sensitive.

pentaxuser · Nov 25, 2019

cmacd123 said:
Kodak's supply situation might very well have a bearing on what price Fuji can charge. In theory Agfa Belgium could get back into the paper business if their was a great business case, as could the folks who bought the coating line from Agfa Germany. so yes, I can imagine that details are commercially sensitive and consultants would be under NDA. Their are other aspects like demand trends that also may be commercially sensitive.

Thanks Can you expand on your first sentence as I am not clear what this means for the current situation of no Kodak cut sheets. You have given reasons for commercial sensitivity but I am unsure how this justifies and for how long this justifies us not knowing what the situation is nor it seems to me any sign of ever knowing what Kodak's position is. Given how long we have waited to know what Kodak intends to do about cut sheets and are still no nearer knowing that's what I find depressing.

Sometimes on Photrio we can act as a company's PR agent be that Ilford, Fuji, Kodak or any others when in reality it can so easily becomes sympathy for company X's situation without us knowing anything about its situation. It can be a little like saying about a person's actions which appear to be very unhelpful "I am sure he has good reasons for being unhelpful but I have no knowledge of what these reasons are.

Thanks

pentaxuser

cmacd123 · Nov 25, 2019

pentaxuser said:
It can be a little like saying about a person's actions which appear to be very unhelpful "I am sure he has good reasons for being unhelpful but I have no knowledge of what these reasons are.

more like "The Situation is complicated and so I can't go into details, but Fred really can't do that for Mary right now"

flavio81 · Nov 25, 2019

Henning Serger said:
1. Kodak is investing extensively / extraordinarily in new production infrastructure, which will increase production capacity significantly.

This is exciting news but somehow I can't understand how this could happen. The same Kodak that 10 or 15 years ago struggled because their production facilities were WAY too big, are now suffering because of lack of production infrastructure...

Is this "new production infrastructure" specifically for RA4 paper production?

MattKing · Nov 25, 2019

flavio81 said:
Is this "new production infrastructure" specifically for RA4 paper production?

That wouldn't be Kodak (Eastman).
Kodak Alaris is the one that does RA4 paper.

mnemosyne · Nov 26, 2019

flavio81 said:
This is exciting news but somehow I can't understand how this could happen. The same Kodak that 10 or 15 years ago struggled because their production facilities were WAY too big, are now suffering because of lack of production infrastructure...

Is this "new production infrastructure" specifically for RA4 paper production?

Most definitely NOT as global sales of RA4 paper are shrinking not expanding and so is KA's share of sales (just look at their last financial statements). They just recently closed a paper production facility in Harrow, UK, citing difficult market situation.

Overall the RA4 market has become smaller and more competitive for KA at the same time, as Fuji has released an array of new papers in recent years.

I can only assume that KA is in a difficult situation right now reorganizing the distribution channels of their paper following the changes in production and Tetenal's demise in Europe. The situation is proabably also complicated by the fact that the Paper/Film/Photochemistry segment of KA is up for sale for some time now.

At least I second lantau's observation that their paper in (either cut sheet or rolls) has become almost impossible to purchase for consumers or small business in continental Europe . It is available through certain wholesalers but only in rolls of 105cm width and wider. It is also available in standard roll sizes from the UK.

Regarding the question "why doesn't KA offer cut sheets" I would agree that it is not worthwhile for them but would also like to point out that KA is indeed offering cut sheets when it comes to their RA4 display materials, so they must have some kind of technical capabilities for finishing product to cut sheets.

Nodda Duma · Nov 26, 2019

Jarrett said:
I hope we finally get some scanners with updated technology. People are literally paying thousands for old scanners that require windows XP.

Not to divert the thread, but you haven’t been looking very hard for new, good quality scanners if you haven’t run across Pacific Imaging. They just released another round of 35mm scanners.

Arcadia4 · Nov 27, 2019

Henning, thanks for taking the trouble to post this information. Its clearly good news in term of film production being able to get onto a more stable footing. Nothing like an uplift/backlog in demand to help lift spirits and help demonstrate business cases for some investment in capacity and renewal.

Its perhaps no surprise that Colorplus is the big backlog item given its low price, although not offered in the US (where Gold 200 pricing is much more competitive) . In the UK Gold has been harder to buy than Colorplus in recent years, highstreet retailers tender to sell Colorplus at Gold 200 prices. Itself as a mid market product victim seemingly of the trend to either value led or expensive product (Fuji axed its Superia equivalent presumably for this reason) . At least one retailer is currently offering Gold 200 as a replacement for lack of Colorplus at no cost difference! How ironic. However since I prefer Gold I must get my order in!

Whilst any new offer from Fuji is good I hope they might consider re-introducing Pro160NS into Europe, given its relatively recent withdrawal (now only offered in Japan ). So would be a relatively low cost re-introduction. However fujifilms strategy for CN seems fewer products with higher volumes compared to Kodaks retention of a wider offer.

Jarrett · Nov 27, 2019

Nodda Duma said:
Not to divert the thread, but you haven’t been looking very hard for new, good quality scanners if you haven’t run across Pacific Imaging. They just released another round of 35mm scanners.

I wouldn't call those "good scanners".

Nikon coolscan, minolta Dimage scanners, Pakon, and the canon scanners come to mind. Not those.

halfaman · Nov 28, 2019

Alessandro Serrao said:
If Kodak is doing all this, the investments ect..., why Fotoimpex and practically all european photo distributors are out of Xtol and D76?
Fotoimpex expects to have Xtol back in 2020!!
What's happening precisely?

One Word.... TETENAL.

Kodak doesn't not produce chemicals since many years, it is done by a contractor. Tetenal was the current one before the backrupcy, I don't know the situation right now, but for sure it is the origin of "out of stock" situation.

Very positive news from Kodak: Strong increasing demand - new investment

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Very positive news from Kodak: Strong increasing demand - new investment

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