V700 film holders

[campy51]

I am buying a V700 but the seller can't find the film holders. To increase my options I am wondering if the V850 holders will work on the V700. I am looking for 120 and 4x5 holders.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

You can get v700 holders without a problem. V800 should work fine, many will praise them over v700 ones, I personally don't care for them any different. I have V800.

 

[138S]

I'd buy the new V800 / V850 holders. They have an ANR glass ensuring flatness and they have adjustable height to nail focus, the V700 holders take more film.

Nailing focus flatness in the Epson is critical if wanting to enlarge big. A drop in the film height of only 2.5mm with provocate a loss of 50% of the optical performance, think that a displacement of 2.5 mm in the center of 4" sheet is not that difficult, and heating while scanning may help.

With the ANR holder you place the curling up and the ANR glass flatens the film, if you buy those adjustable holders then I'd recommend you check the sharpness while changing heigh in the each of the corners.

You also may buy 3rd party holders, like those from Betterscanning, they have a more pro feel, but price is higher.

 

[Bormental]

@138S what do you think about this famous review which claims that the ANR glass added to V800/850 degrades image quality, and therefore V700 film holders are preferable?

 

[138S]

@138S what do you think about this famous review which claims that the ANR glass added to V800/850 degrades image quality, and therefore V700 film holders are preferable?

To me the new ANR glass holders work perfect, IMO they made some pitfall when doing that review. Alan did this side by side the new holders and he had no problem, after adjusting focus he found that: https://www.largeformatphotography....bed-scanners&p=1557267&viewfull=1#post1557267 and this is an impressive result rivaling with a Pro hi end scan.

I recommended a friend having a V750 to get the new ANR holders and he did it, he is quite happy with the results.

If one scans well flat film processed in a Pro lab then the old holders are OK, but with home processed film many time some curling remains and this may place the film out of focus with the old holders.

I don't understand how that people say that: https://www.filmscanner.info/en/EpsonPerfectionV800Photo.html#Filmhalter , it should com efrom a flawed test. Perhaps they had the height in a wrong position or they placed the curling facing the wrong side... who knows...

Those are not the first holders for the Epson using ANR, some Betterscanning holders also use ANR.

 

[grat]

The v700 holders for 120 and 4x5 can hold two negatives each. The v800 versions only hold one each. But the v800 has the ANR and 5 position height adjusters (the v700 has two positions for the height adjuster). The v700 is much more difficult to change the height, which can be good, or bad-- I find the v800 to be a little too easy to change the height on, and have to double-check it every time I load a holder.

As for the ANR glass degrading the image, that's... difficult to fathom, as the glass is between the light source and the negative, not between the negative and the sensor. I suppose there could be some strange diffraction interaction between the film negative and the ANR glass, but I fail to see how that would have altered his results so dramatically.

That particular review was written by someone who was absolutely determined to find as much at fault with the v800 as possible, even going so far as to claim the shorter warm-up time was a negative, or, at least, useless. His claim of an entire hour to scan three 6x6 negatives at 4800 PPI does not match my experience at all-- although it is entirely possible I have a significantly faster system than he did in 2014.

 

[campy51]

Are these ok? Will they work with the V700? I have a 4x5 for my 4990 and that seems to work but the V800 holder looks better.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Epson-Perf...499244&hash=item2899c54c3f:g:9y4AAOSwa9xaj0wv
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Epson-Perf...062969?hash=item2898ab6bf9:g:8ZMAAOSwMYVfGdkP

 

[138S]

Are these ok? Will they work with the V700? I have a 4x5 for my 4990 and that seems to work but the V800 holder looks better.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Epson-Perf...499244&hash=item2899c54c3f:g:9y4AAOSwa9xaj0wv
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Epson-Perf...062969?hash=item2898ab6bf9:g:8ZMAAOSwMYVfGdkP

Yes, this will work perfectly on your V700, but you may find it cheaper, IIRC

https://compassmicro.com/products/scanners/perfection-v850-pro.html

https://epson.com/Support/wa00399

 

[Deleted member 88956]

The v700 holders for 120 and 4x5 can hold two negatives each. The v800 versions only hold one each. But the v800 has the ANR and 5 position height adjusters (the v700 has two positions for the height adjuster). The v700 is much more difficult to change the height, which can be good, or bad-- I find the v800 to be a little too easy to change the height on, and have to double-check it every time I load a holder.

As for the ANR glass degrading the image, that's... difficult to fathom, as the glass is between the light source and the negative, not between the negative and the sensor. I suppose there could be some strange diffraction interaction between the film negative and the ANR glass, but I fail to see how that would have altered his results so dramatically.

That particular review was written by someone who was absolutely determined to find as much at fault with the v800 as possible, even going so far as to claim the shorter warm-up time was a negative, or, at least, useless. His claim of an entire hour to scan three 6x6 negatives at 4800 PPI does not match my experience at all-- although it is entirely possible I have a significantly faster system than he did in 2014.

From the day V800/850 hit the market, 120 holders were said to be too narrow to accept the film properly. Is this still true? When I got my V800 it came with double set of V700 holders so I never had a direct chance to confirm it.

 

[grat]

From the day V800/850 hit the market, 120 holders were said to be too narrow to accept the film properly. Is this still true? When I got my V800 it came with double set of V700 holders so I never had a direct chance to confirm it.

It's very, very tight. The vertical tabs that lock the frame in place are about half a millimeter too close to the film area. It doesn't damage the negative, it just makes it ridiculously annoying to get the film in properly-- I feel like I'm lining up a microscope specimen.

I may have to take back my previous comment about the ANR glass, however-- I did a comparison today at 4800 PPI (About 7 minutes per frame, when doing multi-exposure), and there is definitely a difference. Under some circumstances (the classic of "thin branches against bright sky"), the ANR holder does add some chromatic aberration at 100% view. I've also got a focus issue, so I need to get both frames working at the same height.

 

[Deleted member 88956]

It's very, very tight. The vertical tabs that lock the frame in place are about half a millimeter too close to the film area. It doesn't damage the negative, it just makes it ridiculously annoying to get the film in properly-- I feel like I'm lining up a microscope specimen.

I may have to take back my previous comment about the ANR glass, however-- I did a comparison today at 4800 PPI (About 7 minutes per frame, when doing multi-exposure), and there is definitely a difference. Under some circumstances (the classic of "thin branches against bright sky"), the ANR holder does add some chromatic aberration at 100% view. I've also got a focus issue, so I need to get both frames working at the same height.

Thanks, so Epson not only messed up but never fixed it either on the 120 width. I always found those reports downright disturbing, especially that V700 holders had no such issues.

As ANR inserts I wouldn't know the difference, but I find acrylic material not exactly equal to ANR glass as they are being called, and it's very possible the material they made of introduces some issues. I would think PROPER ANR inserts can be cut to size and retrofitted in those same holders just to see if that makes a difference.

 

[138S]

Under some circumstances (the classic of "thin branches against bright sky"), the ANR holder does add some chromatic aberration at 100% view.

Grat, you may make sure that the film makes perfect contact with the ANR, also this may come from placing the non frosted side up, and not in contact with film.

Also check if those fringes are in the negative with a x60 loupe

I've also got a focus issue, so I need to get both frames working at the same height.

You may have to adjust the height in different position in each corner, it is a bit time consuming the first time.

 

[138S]

I would think PROPER ANR inserts can be cut to size and retrofitted in those same holders just to see if that makes a difference.

Yes, http://scan-tech.net/ , also sold at the bay

and you also can make your own DIY.



Or use the (less popular) Etch Bath variant, also diluted:



Protect one side of the glass with adhesive film. Dilute the etcher cream in water to decrease its strength and test different dilutions/times. Use a suitable flatness certified glass, like those used to make mirrors. Some kind of glasses may be more suitable, but I made ANR glass for an enlarger glass carrier and it worked perfect.

 

[ckuwajima]

I have a v800. I was never able to properly control dust in my environment, therefore bought v700 film holders.
The v800/850 film holders has 2 extra surfaces that needed to be undusted.

 

[138S]

to properly control dust in my environment,

An HEPA purifirer is essential gear to handle negatives: no more dust.

Just use a domestic HEPA class air purifier to clean room's air, I use this one (hap-16200e):



If possible use it in a not too big room, it takes more to clean the air.

Also useful to dry negatives in a dust free environement.

 

[Alan Edward Klein]

I have a v800. I was never able to properly control dust in my environment, therefore bought v700 film holders.
The v800/850 film holders has 2 extra surfaces that needed to be undusted.

Did you try scanning the same negative with both the V700 and V850 holders and compare the difference. I have a V850 and find dust a problem too.

Regarding 120 holders, the V600 I also have allow me to scan three 6x7's at one time. You can only do two with the V850. Also, I saw a "fix" to the holders. You have to cut the tabs off. I can't find the link right now. Maybe someone else has it?

 

[grat]

Grat, you may make sure that the film makes perfect contact with the ANR, also this may come from placing the non frosted side up, and not in contact with film.

I'll admit I might have had the film in wrong side up, but since the ANR inserts are glued into place, they were in whatever orientation Epson manufactured them in.

Also check if those fringes are in the negative with a x60 loupe

They're not present on the v700 holder scan.

You may have to adjust the height in different position in each corner, it is a bit time consuming the first time.

I'm aware of that-- I did a sequence of 5 scans some time ago, one for each height position (I'm not going to try the 4^5 combinations, although once I find the right general height, I may do a +/- on each corner).

At the moment, my v800 holder scans are blurry, and the v700 holder scans are incredibly noisy. So I need to dig out the best negative I've got, and redo the tests.

 

[138S]

So I need to dig out the best negative I've got, and redo the tests.

You may get a glass slide to make the tests in a quantitative way, you may make an offer for the half and see:



The slide measures 63mm, to fit in the 120 holder you may have to grind one side, while protecting the rest. My slide was grided in a shop selling eyeglasses.

To adjust the 35mm and 4x5" holder I made a contact copy on CMS 20, I've a box of CMS 4x5...

 

[grat]

You may get a glass slide to make the tests in a quantitative way, you may make an offer for the half and see:

I realize everyone considers the 1951 USAF High Resolution Target to be the gold standard for determining the resolution of a scanner, but I'm just not sold on it. The idea of the original target was to take an image of it, typically with a film camera, and then analyze the resulting image to determine (usually via a microscope and a good eye) the maximum detail that could be clearly resolved, and then, use that to look up the effective resolving power.

The modern version is to scan the glass slide (so now you've got light passing through three refractive layers, two of which have one refractive index, one of which has another), convert those light levels into a digital image, using a sensor that uses a grid of Green, Red and Blue photo-sensors that then construct a single pixel using those 4 colors, process that image and then, view it on another digital display device (which is designed to translate a digital image into an analog image), and THEN then end user does an analog evaluation of the result using the Mark I Eyeball. There's a great deal of opportunity for data to be altered in that pipeline.

And that's assuming you achieved critical focus, which on the Epson is entirely guesswork.

Now-- it *is* a very sharp object to do scanning against, so for determining critical focus it's good, but it's overpriced for that functionality.

 

[138S]

I realize everyone considers the 1951 USAF High Resolution Target to be the gold standard for determining the resolution of a scanner, but I'm just not sold on it. .

It is only black and white lines, transparent and opaque, of known widths. The question is what you do with it....

got light passing through three refractive layers, two of which have one refractive index, one of which has another),.

You scan the patern that's under the glass slide so that glass has no impact, as the image is taken after the rays have passed the glass

 

[grat]

You scan the patern that's under the glass slide so that glass has no impact, as the image is taken after the rays have passed the glass

You know, that was *exactly* the same argument I made for why the ANR glass shouldn't matter.

But it apparently does.

 

[ckuwajima]

An HEPA purifirer is essential gear to handle negatives: no more dust.

Just use a domestic HEPA class air purifier to clean room's air, I use this one (hap-16200e):

View attachment 254062

If possible use it in a not too big room, it takes more to clean the air.

Also useful to dry negatives in a dust free environement.

Thought about it, but never tried. Good to know that it is effective, thanks!

 

[ckuwajima]

Did you try scanning the same negative with both the V700 and V850 holders and compare the difference. I have a V850 and find dust a problem too.

Regarding 120 holders, the V600 I also have allow me to scan three 6x7's at one time. You can only do two with the V850. Also, I saw a "fix" to the holders. You have to cut the tabs off. I can't find the link right now. Maybe someone else has it?

My film strips were fairly flat, even the 120, therefore I did not perceive difference enough to offset the advantage of having to clean less surfaces and scanning more strips at time.
It may be better for harder and curly films like Bergger Pancro, which is a real PITA to fit in 120 v700 holder.