UV light box

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koraks

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Wouldn't call a £550 unit (with only 60W worth of tubes...) "cheap". Exactly the same UV power can be had for something like £20 if you look for a used face tanner. They're pretty much the same, but you'll have to fashion your own contact frame, which can be as simple as a sheet if glass and some clamps.
 

Craig75

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Yeah I didn't mean that specific unit, just whatever those things are called you use for pcbs. You see those things all the time second hand cheap
 

Andrew O'Neill

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I just built the same system as in Tim Layton's blog. Took me 4 hours, from cutting the wood and assembling it to painting, then installing the tracks. It's in my workspace. Will test it when I complete editing my updated carbon transfer videos.

Just ran a max black/min time test. Looks like 2:30 is all that it takes for a good black through the film base, as apposed to 8 minutes with my BLB unit. That should mean my carbon time will be reduced significantly as well. I wish I built this thing years ago...
 

Andrew O'Neill

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I have it sitting on my old exposure table, which I now use as a light table. Building the UV system was super easy, and cheap.
 

nmp

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I bought me those Barrina's as touted here and am getting ready to build a new UV box. I noticed that these strips are encased in some sort of clear PET-like plastic cover. Wonder if there is any concern regarding those yellowing over time as well as just unnecessarily absorbing a bunch of radiation. I was checking if I could get rid of it before I install them - probably can cut them out.

Any opinions?

:Niranjan.
 

fgorga

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I bought me those Barrina's as touted here and am getting ready to build a new UV box. I noticed that these strips are encased in some sort of clear PET-like plastic cover. Wonder if there is any concern regarding those yellowing over time as well as just unnecessarily absorbing a bunch of radiation. I was checking if I could get rid of it before I install them - probably can cut them out.

Any opinions?

:Niranjan.

My first set of these strips have been in service for a bit over two years. About 5 months ago, I added a second set of strips to my box. I see no difference in the plastic covers on the strips.

Two years is not all that long in the grand scheme, so only time will tell for sure.

--- Frank
 

nmp

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My first set of these strips have been in service for a bit over two years. About 5 months ago, I added a second set of strips to my box. I see no difference in the plastic covers on the strips.

Two years is not all that long in the grand scheme, so only time will tell for sure.

--- Frank

Thanks, Frank.

I tried taking it out on one. It seems pretty easy just prying it off. Anyway, I figured this would be like an accelerated aging test for the plastic - UV and some heat (then again it's not like I am going to use it day and night.) Will see, I will decide to take them out or not when I assemble the box. I don't see the harm in taking them out except the voiding of the warranty and may be damaging the lamps while doing so in my clumsy ways.


:Niranjan.
 
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carlj

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Does anyone have average times for exposing salt with the Barrina LED tubes? I have 8 of the Barrina's and they generally take a long time (easily upwards of 50min or so) with salt, and that's with the printing frame 2-3 inches away from the light (might try closer). I'm thinking of buying 8 more and spacing them closer together (as ih Tim Layton's more recent video). I also have a 100w 365nm LED spotlight which seems to be a bit faster with salt. I'd prefer 365nm over 395nm in the Barrina's but unfortunately that's not an option. In my relatively brief testing Kallitypes took much shorter exposure times, up to around 12 min. Different process, obviously, but the shorter exposure times can make a difference when considering overall workflow and which process might be preferred.
 

TheFlyingCamera

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I use the Barrinas for platinum/palladium and in my current configuration, using digital negatives made on Fixxons, I'm getting 1 minute exposure times per print. I've got 16 strips that are 24" long each, basically side-by-side with no significant gap between them. With that configuration, I can print a 17" x 22" negative or anything smaller. When Niranjan and I tested cuprotypes, however, we were getting 30+ minute exposures for those, so I think it very much depends on your process. Haven't tried salt with mine yet.
 

nmp

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Does anyone have average times for exposing salt with the Barrina LED tubes? I have 8 of the Barrina's and they generally take a long time (easily upwards of 50min or so) with salt, and that's with the printing frame 2-3 inches away from the light (might try closer). I'm thinking of buying 8 more and spacing them closer together (as ih Tim Layton's more recent video). I also have a 100w 365nm LED spotlight which seems to be a bit faster with salt. I'd prefer 365nm over 395nm in the Barrina's but unfortunately that's not an option. In my relatively brief testing Kallitypes took much shorter exposure times, up to around 12 min. Different process, obviously, but the shorter exposure times can make a difference when considering overall workflow and which process might be preferred.

I am sure @fgorga can chime in - he does salts on Barrina's. My salts in a BLB spirals based box needs 8 minutes currently. Yours sounds awfully long. But salts can vary quite significantly based on the chemistry, compositions and paper used so it would be difficult to make direct comparisons.

:Niranjan.
 

fgorga

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Does anyone have average times for exposing salt with the Barrina LED tubes? I have 8 of the Barrina's and they generally take a long time (easily upwards of 50min or so) with salt, and that's with the printing frame 2-3 inches away from the light (might try closer). I'm thinking of buying 8 more and spacing them closer together (as ih Tim Layton's more recent video). I also have a 100w 365nm LED spotlight which seems to be a bit faster with salt. I'd prefer 365nm over 395nm in the Barrina's but unfortunately that's not an option. In my relatively brief testing Kallitypes took much shorter exposure times, up to around 12 min. Different process, obviously, but the shorter exposure times can make a difference when considering overall workflow and which process might be preferred.

I, too, have eight sections of Barrina LED bars in my unit that are roughly two or three inches from the print frame.

My standard exposure time for salted-paper is seven minutes.

Cuprotypes take about 30-40 minutes.

What kind of frame are you using? Or more importantly how thick is the glass in your frame and what type of glass is it?
 

fgorga

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Just as a general FYI...

One needs to use 'plain old' 1/16 inches (2 mm) thick window glass for printing frames. The transmission of this material at 395 nm is very good (roughly 90%) and at 365 nm adequate (very roughly 80%). See the first graph below.

Transmission is linearly and inversely related to the thickness of the material. Thus is you double the thickness you will halve the transmission. So thinner is better.

One definitely wants to avoid using plastics that are sometimes used as substitutes for glass... e.g. acrylic (Plexiglass, Perspex), polycarbonate or polystyrene. The optical transmission of all of these materials drops off steeply below around 400 nm. See the second graph below.


From: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...al_transmission_spectrum_(2_mm_thickness).svg
1691193156941.png


From: https://www.gsoptics.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/transmission.jpg

1691192830189.png
 

carlj

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Hi Niranjan, Frank,

I have a Richard Ritter contact frame w/glass. I'm using in-camera negatives (developed with PyrocatHD) and, while times will vary by negative, in general I don't see anything as short as the < 10 minute times you and Niranjan are reporting, which is interesting -- but maybe the use of in-camera negatives is the distinguishing factor? The longer times are consistent with my experience when I first started salt with T5 UV fluorescent's (weekend workshop sessions), which were typically at least 30 minutes. Paper is COT320, and I'm using a 12% silver nitrate solution.

I've salted a few more sheets and will soon try exposing more negatives. FWIW, I'm also seeing from 25 - 50+ minutes for exposing collodion chloride POP with the 365nm LED spotlight.

Maybe others using in-camera negatives can chime in with general times for salt....

PS: BTW, Hi Frank -- met you at VCP back in July (you were telling me about Cuprotypes) and have one of your panoramic prints of rocks and waterfall and have been wanting to say a belated thank you!

Carl
 

koraks

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Maybe others using in-camera negatives can chime in with general times for salt....

It's been a while since I did any salt, but my times with silver gel negatives and UV-BL tubes were 10 to 15 minutes in my setup. My current LED setup (which is different from yours!!) is about a stop faster, so would certainly print below 10 minutes with salt. A LED bar setup that would require over 15 minutes I would personally consider a candidate for upgrade or replacement.

One disadvantage in my view of LED tubes and especially strips is that the power density is limited due to compromised thermal management. Floodlights and COB LEDs with proper heatsinking & fans are generally better performers if you're optimizing for exposure times.

I'm using in-camera negatives (developed with PyrocatHD)

It's not the main source of your problem, but one reason I've moved away from pyro/staining developers is their tendency to create significant fogging (in the form of dye stain) that just adds non-image UV density. 510-Pyro is especially bad, but Pyrocat isn't perfect, either. Currently, I'm using FX37 for alt. process negatives and it's a whole lot cleaner. As said, it's not the main source of your problem, but with slow processes like salt, any nudge in the right direction is useful.

Finally, process chemistry may play a role. My salting solution was 1.6% NaCl brushed or applied with a coating rod. My silver solution I standardized at 11%, applied with a coating rod, at around the same volume per surface area. In case you haven't done so, or it's been a while, you could try playing a little more with the salt/silver ratio.
A couple of years I put up a video of how I did the process back then:

(I used a paper that gave a little less dmax (but with a brighter white paper base) than another paper I used more at that time.)
 

nmp

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Hi Niranjan, Frank,

I have a Richard Ritter contact frame w/glass. I'm using in-camera negatives (developed with PyrocatHD) and, while times will vary by negative, in general I don't see anything as short as the < 10 minute times you and Niranjan are reporting, which is interesting -- but maybe the use of in-camera negatives is the distinguishing factor? The longer times are consistent with my experience when I first started salt with T5 UV fluorescent's (weekend workshop sessions), which were typically at least 30 minutes. Paper is COT320, and I'm using a 12% silver nitrate solution.

I've salted a few more sheets and will soon try exposing more negatives. FWIW, I'm also seeing from 25 - 50+ minutes for exposing collodion chloride POP with the 365nm LED spotlight.

Maybe others using in-camera negatives can chime in with general times for salt....

PS: BTW, Hi Frank -- met you at VCP back in July (you were telling me about Cuprotypes) and have one of your panoramic prints of rocks and waterfall and have been wanting to say a belated thank you!

Carl

I am using 3% NaCl + 7.5% Citric Acid for the salting solution and 15% AgNO3 for the silvering solution on COT 320 paper, coated with a glass rod. Higher concentrations might be helping somewhat.

One thing you can try to see if the long exposure is related to the base fog of the analog negative: Find the Emin for Dmax with either a Stouffer, or if not available, even a bare paper keeping all other conditions the same. This will give you an idea how big a culprit is the negative in slowing down the exposure.

:Niranjan.
 
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MTGseattle

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I'm curious about this topic as well. Here are a couple more options I have seen:



Mr. Schwab has a part #2 video uploaded as well. The lightbox he builds is fairly expensive for diy, but you have to factor in the metal enclosure. Light duty woodworking skills could easily net one the same thing in a wooden enclosure.

Here is a fully assembled basic unit that seems to be slightly budget minded.

 

carlj

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Hmmm, I have that same Everbeam LED as recommended by Sandy King.

I use a straight 2% salting solution (salt by immersion). Might be something to experiment with there. I use a Richeson brush to apply the sensitizer (paper is COT320).

re. Koraks: Overall, I've had good results with PyrocatHD for mixed-use negatives not terribly inclined to change but thanks for that insight. I'll check out your video.

For FP4+ in PyrocatHD I'm using 14min development times 1:1:100. Maybe that's a problem?

re. Niranjan: base fog may be something to look into, have been thinking about picking up a Stouffer tablet.

FWIW, today I'm getting 8-20 minute exposure times for salt outside in mixed sun, clouds.

Thanks, all.
 
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Rolleiflexible

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I bought one of these at Sandy King’s recommendation.

it works fine for 8x10 I haven’t tried larger.

The problem with these lamps is the form factor. The big bezels make it impossible to gang them up to cover larger sizes. To cover even 8x10 without falloff, you need to raise them up a foot or two above the frame. Because the intensity of light rapidly declines with distance, that translates into long exposures. And with your processes, long times create the possibility of variation from print to print depending on coatings and humidity.

My solution is another off-the-rack solution from Amazon, made by Onforu. The lamps come in 5x15-inch modules. I have four, covering 15x20 in all, for a cost of about $120. They hang 5-6 inches over my vacuum frame. My exposures for kallitypes is 22 seconds.

The Onforu lamps are at 390nm, not 365nm. That's clearly not an issue for kallitypes and I assume for other iron-based processes. I gather it is an issue for photogravures. I do not know about salt prints.

Onforu UV LED lamps from Amazon
 

carlj

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The problem with these lamps is the form factor. The big bezels make it impossible to gang them up to cover larger sizes. To cover even 8x10 without falloff, you need to raise them up a foot or two above the frame. Because the intensity of light rapidly declines with distance, that translates into long exposures. And with your processes, long times create the possibility of variation from print to print depending on coatings and humidity.

My solution is another off-the-rack solution from Amazon, made by Onforu. The lamps come in 5x15-inch modules. I have four, covering 15x20 in all, for a cost of about $120. They hang 5-6 inches over my vacuum frame. My exposures for kallitypes is 22 seconds.

The Onforu lamps are at 390nm, not 365nm. That's clearly not an issue for kallitypes and I assume for other iron-based processes. I gather it is an issue for photogravures. I do not know about salt prints.

Onforu UV LED lamps from Amazon

Yeah, I have my Everbeam flood approx 10-12" above the contact printing frame (more or less), which is what Sandy recommended. Interesting. That's a fast time (Kallitype). I'll also try sodium citrate in my salting formula next time. Thanks for the Onforu link.
 

koraks

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Overall, I've had good results with PyrocatHD for mixed-use negatives not terribly inclined to change

It if works, it works! I don't have experience with FP4+ for this particular purpose in the way you develop it. When I frequently did salted paper, I used to develop for about twice as long as recommended for normal development. Pyrocat 1+1+100 at 14 minutes for this film sounds on the short side to me, but you've got the negatives and I don't!

Hmmm, I have that same Everbeam LED as recommended by Sandy King.

The problem with many of those fixtures sold on eBay, Amazon, AliExpress etc. is their overly optimistic power ratings. To give an example: very recently I picked up an array of 365nm + 400nm dual wavelength floodlights from AliExpress. They're advertised as "300W" units. I knew from earlier experience with an identical unit at only 400nm wavelength that the true power dissipation of the unit was only 75W - so 75% less than advertised. When I received the dual wavelength units last week and put them to the test, I arrived at a real power rating of only 32W. A further complication was that the fixture included a transparent plastic faceplate & lens assembly. This material blocks virtually all 365nm light, further reducing its actual efficiency.

This is all to say that comparing LED fixtures is tricky. Comparing the fixture I wrote about to my home-built 100W (actual, real-life Watts) exposure unit, of course the comparison was totally out of whack.

A further complication is that 365nm LEDs are currently still far less efficient than 400nm LEDs. For processes that are sensitive across a broad bandwidth (e.g. Van Dyke, Kallitype) a 400nm LED unit will almost always compare favorably to a 365nm unit of a similar power rating.

I don't have hands-on experience with that Everbeam fixture, but if I had one, I'd definitely measure its power consumption and open the unit up to analyze its circuitry and get an impression of its actual potential. There may be good reasons why a unit sold as a 100W unit performs no better than a decently engineered and accurately rated 10W unit. But it depends on a whole slew of factors and that makes such a comparison often too difficult to understand/interpret well for the average alt. process printer.

The issue is, sadly, rather complex. The short of it is that if you get long exposures with that unit, then all I can say is that I don't doubt your observations and the fact that someone else reports much shorter exposures with another unit of the same power rating (and another process) just doesn't say much.

with your processes, long times create the possibility of variation from print to print depending on coatings and humidity.

I'm frankly not too worried about this. Salted paper works fine if dried completely. Working with silver gel negatives generally already gives some margin for variation and that tends to swamp more minor effects such as the ones you mention. When I frequently did salt, my exposures were 10-15 minutes. The only thing that really influenced them was the negative. All other parameters had marginal effects at best.
Mind you, I understand and accept that processes like Pt/Pd and a couple of others are more prone to this issue since they're often practiced at higher humidity levels that are not always sustainable during long exposures.
 

Rolleiflexible

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The short of it is that if you get long exposures with that unit, then all I can say is that I don't doubt your observations and the fact that someone else reports much shorter exposures with another unit of the same power rating (and another process) just doesn't say much.

If you are saying that some vagary of build quality might account for the difference between exposure times, I would not be sure about that. Salt prints take longer than kallitypes. Distance matters a lot: the inverse square law says that light intensity reduces by the square of the increased distance. My rig is four times closer to the paper surface than the more compact unit mounted higher, making my rig effectively 16 times brighter. And I am using a vacuum frame with transparent vinyl, removing the glass (which acts as a UV filter) from the process.
 

koraks

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If you are saying that some vagary of build quality might account for the difference between exposure times

That's what I'm saying if comparisons are drawn between times with the same exposure unit. At least that's what I get from first-hand observations, as mentioned.

Salt prints take longer than kallitypes.

Absolutely; I may have formulated it a bit carelessly, but I intended to express that comparing one process to another is indeed comparing apples and oranges.

the inverse square law says that light intensity reduces by the square of the increased distance.

Yes, well, almost. It's not exactly square of distance with LED sources since they're quasy-directional, but there's very drastic falloff as distance increases.


the glass (which acts as a UV filter)

Glass attenuates 400nm UV not all that much; most glass in this application will pass at least 80% of the radiation at that band. It's a little different for 365nm. Wavelength matters, here. So does thickness of the glass.

I'm not saying equipment 'vagaries' are THE explanation. What I was trying to say is that beyond the things already brought into scope, there are additional factors that possibly play a role. And they can all add up. I do agree with you that the main problem with a comparison between your times and @carlj's is that you're printing kallitype and he's doing salt. That's a very, very big difference in several ways. This would make me hesitant to attribute much value to a comparison; in my mind, it only makes sense to compare exposure times within the same process and then try to standardize on process parameters as much as possible.
 
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