Using Silverfast to evaluate film exposure and development...

ChristopherCoy

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Im using Silverfast 8 (SE I think) and an Epson 4990.

I've recently shot 3 rolls of film to test exposure and development of Tri-X film in Rodinal, and I need to evaluate the negatives through scans. However, I'm not well versed in Silverfast yet, so using the software add's a variable that I am not sure how to control.

What settings should I leave on, turn off, or adjust in order to get the best scan possible for evaluation?

Should I use things like "Negafix", CCR, and others "automatic" tools?

If you are knowledgable in Silverfast, and could give me a quick list of settings and where they should be placed, it would be greatly appreciated!
 

MattKing

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Chris,
I think you also want to hear from those who are more experienced than myself at these things how best to use the built in software functions like histograms to help you with your evaluation of the negatives.
 

roblopes

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MattKing said:
Chris,
I think you also want to hear from those who are more experienced than myself at these things how best to use the built in software functions like histograms to help you with your evaluation of the negatives.
Click to expand...

To be honest, I tried silverfast blamed everything under the sun for why I couldn't scan well. Turned out that it all came down to in camera and getting proper exposure. I'm still a newbie to film too, well, 3 years in with lots to learn.

Seriously, it may sound too simple, but by accident, I discovered that I was over complicating scans because I wasn't exposing film properly. Learning how to develop E-6, C-41 and black and white, it just clicked one day. Literally. I had an issue with the Epson V600 and I couldn't figure out what was going on so I just his the SCAN button in easy mode and my images were flawless.

My process is shoot a roll of film
Develop it at home
Scan it
Done

No more messing around with sliders, color correction because it was under/over exposed. It really comes down to proper exposure and making sure my in camera meters are working properly.
 
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ChristopherCoy

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MattKing said:
Chris,
I think you also want to hear from those who are more experienced than myself at these things how best to use the built in software functions like histograms to help you with your evaluation of the negatives.
Click to expand...

Thank you Matt!
 

shutterfinger

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I'm not up to date with Silverfast 8. From my experience with Silverfast 6, EpsonScan, and Vuescan a correctly exposed and developed B&W negative will have the deepest blacks starting between 0 and 25 (exposure) and the highlights ending between 200 and 255 (developing) on the histogram with the black and white points set to 0 and 255 and all other controls off or neutral. There are exceptions where there are no dark tones in the scene or bright reflections or the sun in the scene. You can use the exposure compensation in Silverfast to get an idea of how far off your process is. Its hard to get every negative perfect but close scans well.
 

138S

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No silverfast for that.

Just use a flatbed scan of your negatives alongside with an Stouffer T2115 density wedge, disable any scanner enhancing feature and take all histogram. Then use photoshop or etc, and compare (16 bit/channel) gray levels in the image with the scanned patches, you'll have a very good density reading.
 

Alan Edward Klein

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I use Epsonscan with my Epson V600 and V850 for both color and BW. I scan "flat" with only setting the IN black and white points just outside the histogram. I set the Output for 0 and 255. That's it. All sharpening and everything else is off. Then I tweak in post with Lightroom or Elements.

Here are BW's.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums/72157714124881023 4x5 format
https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums/72157642492618713 medium format
https://www.flickr.com/photos/alanklein2000/albums/72157711298417592 35mm
 
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ChristopherCoy

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Unfortunately I dont have the luxury of Epsonscan, they quit supporting it for OS 10.15, so I'm using Silverfast. I'll see if I can figure out the histogram tip. Thanks!
 

138S

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hmmm... it looks that this new V850 works pretty nice...
 

Alan Edward Klein

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I found the following on the Epson web site. Don't know if it's of any help. Good luck.

Epson Scan or Epson Scan 2 does not work since I upgraded to macOS 10.15. What should I do?

  • Update or reinstall Epson Scan or Epson Scan 2. To update the software, use Epson Software Updater. To reinstall the software, do the following:
    1. Go to the Epson support page and select your product.
    2. Select macOS 10.15 in the Operating System drop-down box, if necessary.
    3. Download and install the Scanner Driver and EPSON Scan Utility or Scanner Driver and Epson Scan 2 Utility for your product.
      Note: Epson Scan is not available for some products running in macOS 10.15. You can use Apple's Image Capture software instead. To use Image Capture, install Epson's ICA Scanner Driver for Image Capture. Go to the Downloads tab on your product's support page, and download and install the ICA Scanner Driver for Image Capture.
Published: Oct 3, 2019

https://epson.com/faq/SPT_CATALINA-NS~faq-0000b1e-macos_10_15?faq_cat=faq-topFaqs
 

Alan Edward Klein

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138S said:
hmmm... it looks that this new V850 works pretty nice...
Click to expand...
Thanks. The larger 4x5 film size really makes a difference. It sharper, more resolution and tones are overall better. Those were Tmax 100. I'm shooting Tmax 400 now. I wanted to see the difference.
 

138S

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Alan Edward Klein said:
Thanks. The larger 4x5 film size really makes a difference. It sharper, more resolution and tones are overall better. Those were Tmax 100. I'm shooting Tmax 400 now. I wanted to see the difference.
Click to expand...

The 400 has slightly lower resolving power, but it would be difficult to notice in LF

you edited a nice tonality, this makes a difference...
 

MattKing

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Almost no-one is answering Chris' question.
He is not asking how to get good scans.
He is asking how to use the scanner as a tool to help him evaluate the results of his exposure and development tests.
 
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ChristopherCoy

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Thanks Matt. I guess I wasn't very clear.

The only way that I have to evaluate the negatives is through scanning. Because of all the bells and whistles that Silverfast has, it add's a variable to the evaluation that I can't control without knowing what to turn off, what to turn on, and how to position the histogram so that I get the "straightest" scan I can. So that's what I'm asking - what should I turn on, what should I turn off, and how do I use the histogram to tell me the details of the negatives that I need to know.

I hope that's a little more understandable.
 

MattKing

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You are welcome Chris.
Now be prepared to respond to what I told you that you would be asked to do:
"Show us the negatives!"
Remember, I warned you .
 

shutterfinger

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I don't use Sliverfast 8 SE or SE Plus as it scans in 16 bit but saves in 8 bit. I run Windows, not Mac.
Post a screen shot of the setting window for Silverfast on your Mac and I'll tell you how to set it.
 

138S

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MattKing said:
Almost no-one is answering Chris' question.
He is not asking how to get good scans.
He is asking how to use the scanner as a tool to help him evaluate the results of his exposure and development tests.
Click to expand...

This was perfectly answered, for example here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...exposure-and-development.175218/#post-2280445

The rest of the knowledge required is in Beyond The Zone System book, by Phil Davis:

> Spots metered -/+0 should have 0.1+ (0.8/1.3) = 0.72D density more than Fog+Base density (density of film spots that received zero light). So if (say) Fog+Base is 0.08 then spots metered -/+0 should have 0.8D density.

> Spots underexposed metered -3.33 stops (3 1/3 stops unerexposed) should have density 0.1D plus Fog + Base. So if (say) Fog+Base is 0.08 then spots metered 3 1/3 stops unerexposed should have 0.18D density.

If this is acomplished film is ISO normally developed (0.62 CI, contrast index) and exposed with ISO normal speed.

From this, we have personal film speeds and non normal development to suit any personal taste, and YMMV.
 
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peter k.

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Here's a sugestion:

I'm Using Silverfat 8.8 on windows with Epson 700 scanner.
Your scanning B&W correct?
ChristopherCoy said:
Should I use things like "Negafix", CCR, and others "automatic" tools?
Click to expand...
Negaflix set to Kodak, T-Max 400 Exposure 0.0 no other automatic tools, or settings. Be sure to shut off Unsharp Masking
Next Prescan:
After your scanner warms up, it will scan the entire area. Select and frame your negative in the red rectangle. To verify that you have only the negative captured you can select the "+" button on the left of the screen and it will zoom in to just the area you selected. Make adjustments as necessary, so that your red rectangle is just a little ways inside the edge of the negative.
At top of Silverfast Screen select "Histogram"
You should see that your complete image in black peaks and valleys should be between 0 and 255 if your exposure was correct
From this point you can start to make adjustments with the exposure control and tolerance in the Negaflix area, and trying other things. By making more adjustments via the "Densitometer" I usually have mine for light and dark set in preference area to 5.95, also when we hit the light box or dark box at the top of densitometer it will give the brightest and darkest areas in the negative, and can set that via "Pipette" on left side of Silverfast to your saved in the preference area.

Hope this helped a little, and not confused you more.
 

Les Sarile

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Make sure to turn off autoexposure.
If you kept track of the exposure settings on the rolls you took then you should be able to tell the difference readily. Since these were b&w, you should also be able to visually tell as a confirmation of what the scans should look like. For instance, if you shot frame 1 at "ideal" and the next frame of the same scene as over or under expose by 1 stop, you should be able to look at it and see the difference on a stable lightbox and the scan should show this difference.
If you lay the whole roll on the glass of the scanner, you should be able to make out the differences in exposure - if you in fact varied the exposure.
 

grat

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Everyone is telling the OP how to scan, or expose, or meter... not how to do comparisons using a scanner.

Short version is... that's a lotta variables. Personally, I would set "Scan Dimensions" how you want, let "Densiometer" and "Picture Settings" use their defaults, and turn on negfix (if your film is supported)... it's primarily for color cast fixing, which will be the same across all your negatives anyway.

Close out all the other subwindows like histogram, gane, isrd, srdx, unsharp, etc..

If you're scanning multiple negatives in batch mode, right-click "Frame" and "Copy settings to all frames".

That should produce the closest you can get to "unbiased" scans that you can test in LightRoom, photoshop, etc. (since I assume that's the point of the exercise).
 

roblopes

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It's my amatuer experience that if one does not expose film properly, it doesn't matter how you scan. It becomes an image recovery job, which is a very time consuming task.

Meter and stay within the dynamic range of the film. If it exceeds the DR, then use filters or wait for the conditions to get better for the DR range of the film stock.

I wasted so much time trying to figure out how to scan film only to find out it was better to learn film density and how to stay within the dynamic range of the film stock.
 

MattKing

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Folks - Chris is asking how to use the scanner as a tool - not to create scans, but to help him evaluate the exposure and development of his negatives.
 

brbo

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MattKing said:
Folks - Chris is asking how to use the scanner as a tool - not to create scans, but to help him evaluate the exposure and development of his negatives.
Click to expand...

And since he is yet to explain what tool (a densitometer? a loupe? a contact print?) he wants to use his scanner as... he's bound to get all kinds of answers. People are mostly not very good at mind reading.

I suspect he wants a "densitometer"?! If that is so, I suggest establishing how to output a linear (raw) scan with Silverfast. And then some math to convert the values to "densities". Of course, "densities" through scanner can't be treated as absolutes like those from a real calibrated densitometer but sensible conclusions can still be made when comparing different negatives evaluated like that.

I don't have a need or money to get Silverfast 8 for my Epson 4990 so I can't help with that, but it's trivial with Vuescan.

Maybe first hits from google search can help:

https://www.sebastian-schlueter.com/blog/2017/2/10/how-to-make-a-linear-scan-with-silverfast-88
https://sites.google.com/site/negfix/scan_dens
 

MattKing

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Chris is a beginner at this - he is asking for simple advice from people who have and use the tools that he has, in order to improve the quality of the film negatives he is creating.
I and others have given him some advice from our perspective, but that perspective doesn't (in my case) include recent or knowledgeable use of Silverfast (or his scanner, for that matter)

It would help Chris if you can tell him how making a linear scan will help him evaluate the exposure and development of his film. Because that is what he was/is asking - how he can use the tools he has to learn the things he needs to know about the film he is exposing.
 
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