using Na2 for contrast on palladium?

[michael9793]

I thought I read you could use Na2 for contrast instead of platinium and that it gives you just as good of contrast change if not better?
I am going back to doing some pal/plat printing and heard about this and was wondering if anyone has info on this. I tried a search but got nothing.

thank you
michael andersen :confused:

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

I use it as a contrasting agent when printing Palladium and mixed platinum/palladium prints. It is a much more successful contrasting agent than the Ferric Oxalate #2. Na2 IS sodium platinum. Platinum itself may have somewhat more contrast than pure palladium, but Na2 is a very potent contrasting agent. Unlike when working with FeOx#2, Na2 is used in fractions of a drop (usually I use 1 drop per 5x7, with the Na2 diluted 1:3 as my base amount). Na2 is expensive, but it goes a VERY long way.

 

[scootermm]

Na2 is used in fractions of a drop (usually I use 1 drop per 5x7, with the Na2 diluted 1:3 as my base amount). Na2 is expensive, but it goes a VERY long way.

Just to clarify this for the original posters sake ...
Scott I assume you are using the Na2 purchased from bostick & sullivan.
Given this assumption when scott says he is using 1 drop of Na2 diluted 1:3 that would go along with the assumption that he is taking the Na2 purchased from Bostick and sullivan, which is a 20% sodium platinum solution and diluting it down to a 5% solution. This correct scott? so you are using a single drop of 5% Na2 to a 5x7 coating? I assume this to be true.

I order my Na2 from B&S as well and usually dilute it up in seperate bottles.
I add 5ml of the stock 20% solution to 5ml of distilled water = giving me a 10% solution. I also add 5ml of stock solution to 15ml of distilled water giving me a 5% solution. Also, I add 5ml of stock 20% to 35ml of water to make a 2.5% solution.
So from a 25ml bottle of B&S 20% Na2 you get:
10ml of 10% Na2
20ml of 5% Na2
40ml of 2.5% Na2
and
5ml of 20% Na2

This goes a LONG way even when printing as large as 12x20 as Im usually using mostly 5% and 2.5% Na2 drops.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Just to clarify this for the original posters sake ...
Scott I assume you are using the Na2 purchased from bostick & sullivan.
Given this assumption when scott says he is using 1 drop of Na2 diluted 1:3 that would go along with the assumption that he is taking the Na2 purchased from Bostick and sullivan, which is a 20% sodium platinum solution and diluting it down to a 5% solution. This correct scott? so you are using a single drop of 5% Na2 to a 5x7 coating? I assume this to be true.

I order my Na2 from B&S as well and usually dilute it up in seperate bottles.
I add 5ml of the stock 20% solution to 5ml of distilled water = giving me a 10% solution. I also add 5ml of stock solution to 15ml of distilled water giving me a 5% solution. Also, I add 5ml of stock 20% to 35ml of water to make a 2.5% solution.
So from a 25ml bottle of B&S 20% Na2 you get:
10ml of 10% Na2
20ml of 5% Na2
40ml of 2.5% Na2
and
5ml of 20% Na2

This goes a LONG way even when printing as large as 12x20 as Im usually using mostly 5% and 2.5% Na2 drops.

Matt-

yes, that is exactly what I'm doing. Because I use so little of it, and I don't print more than a few prints at a time, I've not pre-mixed my Na2 solution into separate percentage bottles. I've generally been happy with the results I'm getting from the 5% Na2 solution, and not found it too punchy.

 

[michael9793]

scott and matt,
thanks
so you use sodium paltinum to replace the FEO#2, but still use the FEOx #1 and palladium. I have heard also you can use just palladium with this and it will give you the contrast of pall/plat prints or straight plat prints. I never used straight palladium in printing but they say it is hard to get good contrast with it alone using FeOx #2. Is this true guys?

Also I have FEOx #1-25ml, palladium #3-50ml, platinium #3-25ml, FEOx#2-25ml.
I bought it 5 years ago. would you say this is outdated and is there anyway to restore it, Or am I having to chuck it and start over.
Again thanks for your time and help.

Mike Andersen

 

[Clyde Rogers]

If your FO is liquid, throw it away and get new, it's cheap. If it's powder, it should be fine. The pt and pd solutions will outlive us, so keep and use them.

I am unable to get good looking palladium prints with lower contrast negatives and FO#2. I get good prints from the same negatives with Na2. I really like the prints using pd and Na2, and yes, you get excellent contrast control.

See http://www.dickarentz.com/na2.html for the proportions of FO#1, pd and Na2 to get different contrast grades.

Until later,

Clyde Rogers

 

[Monophoto]

scott and matt,
thanks
so you use sodium paltinum to replace the FEO#2, but still use the FEOx #1 and palladium. I have heard also you can use just palladium with this and it will give you the contrast of pall/plat prints or straight plat prints. I never used straight palladium in printing but they say it is hard to get good contrast with it alone using FeOx #2. Is this true guys?

Also I have FEOx #1-25ml, palladium #3-50ml, platinium #3-25ml, FEOx#2-25ml.
I bought it 5 years ago. would you say this is outdated and is there anyway to restore it, Or am I having to chuck it and start over.
Again thanks for your time and help.

Mike Andersen

You always need FeO #1 - that's the basic sensitizing compound. Unfortunately, the advertised shelf life of the solution is 6 months (I've seen it last a year, but that's really stretching things). Pt, Pd and Na2 each have a 50 year shelf life.

If you are using Fe)#2, the ratio of #1 and #2 determines contrast, while the ratio of Pt and Pd determines (mainly) image tone - warm to cool. As Clyde notes, if you need to add lots of #2 to increase contrast, you will increase the likelihood of a problem called "brassing". Adding more Pt will correct that problem.

But if Na2 is used as a contrasting agent with Pd printing - you should not mix Pd and Pt when using Na2 the way you do when using FeO#2. Adding miniscule amounts of Na2 will provide all the contrast control you need.

 

[JLP]

Michael, if you are going to mix some new FEOx up from powder i recomend doing as Dick Arentz adding a little Citric acid, it makes it so much easier to disolve the solution. Believe i mix 55ml of distilled water with 15g of FeOx and 1.5g of Citric acid. Have a feeling that this also helps clear the print after developing.


jan

 

[scootermm]

scott and matt,
thanks
so you use sodium paltinum to replace the FEO#2, but still use the FEOx #1 and palladium. I have heard also you can use just palladium with this and it will give you the contrast of pall/plat prints or straight plat prints. I never used straight palladium in printing but they say it is hard to get good contrast with it alone using FeOx #2. Is this true guys?

Also I have FEOx #1-25ml, palladium #3-50ml, platinium #3-25ml, FEOx#2-25ml.
I bought it 5 years ago. would you say this is outdated and is there anyway to restore it, Or am I having to chuck it and start over.
Again thanks for your time and help.

Mike Andersen

Mike keep in mind that I am not an expert on pt/pd printing, its only been my tool of choice for a short while now (comparatively speaking). So take it as it is, just one persons working experience, you may experience differently.

5yrs, toss the FEOx (if in solution, if dry you may be able to use it from what Ive heard) the pt and pd will be fine I imagine.
I use equal parts FEOx #1 and Pd with my prints. Then add the NA2 to that mixture. For example: 8x10 print, I use 0.8ml of FEOx and 0.8ml of Pd then perhaps 2 drops of 5% Na2 (along with a few drops of everclear for good measure). The NA2 is in addition to the already equal parts FEOx and Pd. On occasion I can print a neg without any Na2 but its rare, Im just not that good of an exposure estimator and developer I guess... but Im okay with that.
The #2FEOx is just FEOx and some chlorate. I used the FEOx #2 for a while and noticed a night and day difference between it as a contrasting agent and Na2 as a contrasting agent. In fact so much so that I look back at my first set of exhibit prints and it makes me want to reprint the entire series with Na2 mixtures
Na2 gives much smoother sky tones amongst being able to work with a much more diverse range of negs. The Na2 replaces the neccesity for straight Pt in the mixture (according to the Arentz book - which by the way is an IMMENSELY helpful resource).
Hope that helps.

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Mike-

yes - you use an equal measure of pt/pd and FeOx. You can vary the proportion of Pt to Pd to alter the look of the print. It is challenging to do a pure Pt print, for a number of reasons. You can possibly get away with it when you've done some printing with Pd prints to get Pd into solution in your developer.

As others have said, just toss that old FeOx and order some new from Bostick & Sullivan. Your life will be infinitely easier working with fresh FeOx. Take the FeOx #2 and throw it as far as you can into the nearest landfill of your choosing. Forget that it exists as an option. Yes it works, and is "ok" for a total newbie wanting to learn the process, but after you've made two or three successful Pd prints, you should never use it again. Take a look at the Pd and Pt/Pd prints in my gallery here on APUG to see some examples of prints made with Na2 as the contrasting agent.

If I recall correctly, I used 1 drop of the 5% solution of Na2 with this one -
(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Matt is measuring in ml of fluid - I'm doing the old standby of drop counts, but I'm mostly coating 5x7 or 5x12, with the occasional 8x10 or 7x15 print, so I'm using much smaller quantities, and I'm not aiming for precision, just repeatability. As long as you use the same dropper every time (separate dropper for each fluid - don't want to contaminate them!), you'll have enough repeatability to control your process.

 

[Clyde Rogers]

I've developed the habit of measuring the Na2 first, then adding the FO#1, and then adding the palladium. Then if I have a brain fart or fumble with the dropper, I can toss the cheap stuff and save the metal.

The Arentz book is excellent. So excellent, in fact, I bought it twice. Once when it came out---I wasn't actively printing then, so put it on a stack of other books in my office---then started printing again a few months later, and immediately bought another copy when I ordered new FO.

PM me if you want a nearly new copy of a very fine book, current edition, at at a fair discount...

--clyde

 

[michael9793]

Thanks everyone.
I think I have his book but I will do like clyde buy it again and if I find the first well I'll put the second copy somewhere I more than likly won't find it and have to search for it if I loose the other copy.
Anyway, I'm going to print out these pages so I have them as reference. I checked on the price of Na2 and found that it is very costly. but per ml used not any more expensive than anything else.I just reviews Lenswork extended #71 with the Mov. file on Ryuijie's darkroom and seeing some of his P/P prints and some of EW's prints he got to print in P/P. well worth watching.

again thank you for your time

Michael Andersen

 

[Vaughn]

Thanks for the Na2 discussion! I normally use no contrast agent...often I have too much contrast (then I make carbon prints from those negs!)

But I was making some very small prints the other night...4 drops FO, 3 drops palladium and 1 drop Na2 (all from B&S), as my prints from the week before from the negative (FO 4, Pd 3, Pt 1) were a little flat. Way too much contrast after the print dried! I had not expected that much increase in contrast...but from the posts here, I see that it was to be expected.

I know better now! The info here and my experience will make my next printing session more successful!

Vaughn

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

Vaughn-

You should also be using your FeOx and your Pt/Pd in a 1:1 ratio. No wonder your prints were coming out with thermonuclear highlights. 1 drop of Na2 (I'm assuming you were using 1 drop of the 20% Na2 undiluted) as a substitute for 1 drop of metal is just WAAAAY overkill. The contrasting agent (other than the FeOx#2) should be used in addition to the 4:4 drop count. If your negs are normally contrasty enough to print Carbon, then try diluting your Na2 down to around 1:4 or 1:5, maybe even further. You really shouldn't need any at all if your negs are souped for carbon printing.

 

[Vaughn]

Vaughn-

You should also be using your FeOx and your Pt/Pd in a 1:1 ratio. No wonder your prints were coming out with thermonuclear highlights. 1 drop of Na2 (I'm assuming you were using 1 drop of the 20% Na2 undiluted) as a substitute for 1 drop of metal is just WAAAAY overkill. The contrasting agent (other than the FeOx#2) should be used in addition to the 4:4 drop count. If your negs are normally contrasty enough to print Carbon, then try diluting your Na2 down to around 1:4 or 1:5, maybe even further. You really shouldn't need any at all if your negs are souped for carbon printing.

Actually, my best carbon negs don't print well at all with no contrast agent -- just too much contrast...I'd have to go with a POP platinum process (ie Ziatype) in order to lower the contrast. The negative I was trying to print needs just a touch of contrast.

I had always assumed that one replaced metal for metal...not add the Na2 on top of the normal amount of metal. Previously I have used it a drop or two of Na2 in my printing of an odd 8x10 negative or two (22 drops FO, 15 Pd, 5 Pt, and two drops Na2 (20%), for example) with a minimal contrast change.

There is a lot of conflicting info floating around -- I have read that using any platinum with Na2 nuetralizes the contrast effect of the Na2. it doesn't seem to do that, but I'm no chemist.

But like I said, normally I do not need any contrast agent. I have been platinum/palladium printing for 10 years, but I stopped needing the FO solution #2 fairly quickly...I don't have a lot of experience using Na2...though my 25ml bottle does seem to be getting towards the bottom over these past 6 years or so. Nice to know I can really stretch it out with dilution!

Vaughn

PS...what I might do next time is to mix enough for 6 prints...24 drops FO, 24 drops Pd and one drop NA2 (20%). Then divide the total for the 6 prints.

 

[Kerik]

Vaughn,

If you're using Na2 at full strength (20%) then you can substitute it for equal drops of Pd. But, as you found out, in a 4x5 print 1 drop of 20% is A LOT! Even in an 8x10 print, a drop of 20% makes a significant change in contrast.

Rather than making enough sensitizer for 6 prints, make diluted solutions of Na2 as described earlier in this thread. In the case of diluted Na2, add it to the equal portions of pd and feox rather than substituting.

 

[Vaughn]

Kerik, you're the man...

For just a slight increase in contrast, what dilution would you recommend for the Na2. I don't have very much...3 to 5 ml, so I don't have much to play with.

Vaughn

 

[scootermm]

Vaughn... not to answer in place of Kerik... my experience has been that 2.5% and 5% dilutions are actually quite effective in adding subtle contrast. As an example sometimes I use as little as 2-3 drops of 2.5% or 5% in a 12x20 print and it helps a good amount.

Honestly, if youve got 3ml of 20% solution you could measure out 1ml add 2ml of distilled water and have 3ml of 5% solution which would last a good long while especially with smaller prints.
From my experience, Ive only gone through 1 bottle of 10ml 20% Na2 and am on my second bottle and have printed quite a bit over the last year+ (lots and lots of 7x17s and 12x20s)

 

[Vaughn]

Thanks. That will get me something to aim at. I'll have another all-night printing session this week-end or early next week and give it a try.

Vaughn

 

[Kerik]

Matt, check your math. I agree that 2.5% is a good target for slight changes in small prints. But, you need to add 3 ml of water to 1 ml of 20% to get 5%.

Here's my suggestion:

From the 3 ml of 20% take 2 ml and dilute with 2 ml of water to make 4 ml of 10%. Take 2 ml of the 10% and dilute with 2 ml of water to make 4 ml of 5%. Take 2 ml of the 5% and dilute with 2 ml of water to make 4 ml of 2.5%.

The result from diluting 3 ml of 20%:
1 ml of 20%
2 ml of 10%
2 ml of 5%
4 ml of 2.5%

Depending on your droppers, you'll get 18 to 20 drops per ml so these amounts will make quite a few prints.

 

[scootermm]

you are correct Kerik. Typed too fast, thanks for catching that.

1ml 20% with 1ml of h2o = 2ml of 10%
2ml of 10% with 2ml of h2o = 4ml of 5%

sorry about the miscalc vaughn.

 

[Vaughn]

you are correct Kerik. Typed too fast, thanks for catching that.

1ml 20% with 1ml of h2o = 2ml of 10%
2ml of 10% with 2ml of h2o = 4ml of 5%

sorry about the miscalc vaughn.

Thanks Kerik!

No Problem, Scoot...I would have double checked the math before I started messing with the 20%.

Vaughn

 

[michael9793]

checking some of my old charts and cards from my box of Pal/plat equipment I found a old chark for contrast using the old A+B method. My question is if you use 6 drops pt and 6 drops pd, do you use 6 drops FeO and then what ever drops of what ever % you are using of Na2 for the contrast? And for 8x10 what is a good drop amount. I also will be doing my 8x20's what is good for that. thanks


mike a

 

[TheFlyingCamera]

If you're using 6 drops pt AND 6 pd, then you need TWELVE drops FeOx. The Na2 is added in addition to the total of sensitizer and metal salts. Whatever total drop count you use for the total metal salts, be it all pt, all pd, or a blend, you should use an equal amount of sensitizer - 12 drops total metal salts needs 12 drops sensitizer.

Your total drop count for a given size print will vary based on the paper you're using, and how sloppy you want your borders. I typically use 13-14FeOx:13-14Pt/Pd for an 8x10 on the COT320 paper. Double that for an 8x20. The few times I tried printing on the Cranes 90# cover, I found my required drop count was 50% higher. You'll have to experiment with your paper of choice to see what kind of drop count you'll need. The COT320 is one of the most economical papers with regards to required drops. Most other papers I've tried required more.

 

[michael9793]

going throught my old paper I found I have about 15 sheets of COT-320 and platinotype white. from what I saw at B&S this has been discontinuted as of 2006 and has been replaced. But I have about 15-20 sheets of this. You have given me a good starting point and as soon as my UV box comes in I can start up again. this will be different for me because I use to use a flip top with a ark light. this one will be from B&S and will be using flor. bulbs. My old exposures were 15-20 mins and got very warm to almost hot. I had to keep it in the garage due to the heat from the fan.

mja