Using grains focuser with or without paper on the easel

Mainecoonmaniac

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M Carter

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In my experience, the DOF at the paper plane is deep enough that adding paper doesn't seem to change a thing. And I print wide-open often (20x24 lith prints, can't stand 4 minute exposures!)

I've been doing liquid emulsion on canvas at 30-40", I do throw a scrap of the primed canvas under the focuser and print at F11 or so to be safe.
 

Sirius Glass

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Just as I expected that the depth of field would take care of it. I use it with paper underneath which may not be necessary, but I think is good practice.
 

Donald Qualls

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As I commented on the video -- there is a visible difference, if you're grain-peeping, but it's not a difference that will matter at anything resembling a normal viewing distance. Does no harm to put the same thickness under your grain focuser, and it's undoubtedly a reasonable practice -- but it's probably the least important factor in getting a top quality print. Heck, I almost never even use a grain focuser (though I will admit to having a built-in 8x loupe, if I take my glasses off).
 

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IMHO reliance upon any DOF of the enlarging lens at exposure aperture should be neverthless considered as 'not exactly at the perfect plane of focus', and recognized for the reality..."Merely 'good enough to fool the eye' about the imperfection of focus"
Why strive to achieve 'imperfection' ?!...even if it does not appear to really matter

A piece of the target media under the grain focus is simply 'good practice' rather than resorting to lazy technique.
 
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dpurdy

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I put a piece of paper in my easel for a brighter viewing image. Focus before I take it out. I don't think it makes any difference in the real world.
 

Doremus Scudder

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dpurdy said:
I put a piece of paper in my easel for a brighter viewing image. Focus before I take it out. ...
Click to expand...

This, except it may make a difference in the real world.

Better is better; why be imprecise if you don't have to? Use the paper under the grain magnifier to get closer to perfect; there are enough other inaccuracies in the system that we shouldn't be intentionally introducing more when it's easy not to.

Best,

Doremus
 
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Donald Qualls

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gone

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Better isn't better if it's the same. I've seen how this one works, and yes, DOF will certainly cover things. It's not accurate to say it introduces inaccuracies :]

I use a sheet of drawing paper under the enlarger lens only because it's easier to get the focus sharp. In fact, I can usually nail focus w/ just my eyes, the grain focuser is just to make sure it's right. It really helps to have a sharp, well exposed and developed neg to begin with.
 
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Don_ih

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This has the makings of another religious post.

"Thou shalt not use the grain focus implement on the barren easel plain."

(Edited to add that this is something that is 100% personal preference and that it would be nearly impossible to prove that there is any significant difference one way or the other.)
 

cliveh

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I don't use paper underneath and I thought grain focus scopes were designed to compensate for this?
 

warden

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dpurdy said:
I put a piece of paper in my easel for a brighter viewing image. Focus before I take it out. I don't think it makes any difference in the real world.
Click to expand...
Ditto. I need the white paper to focus properly.
 

cliveh

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cliveh

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warden said:
yellow
Click to expand...

What colour is your easel? And what enlarger manufacturer in their right mind would make an enlarger with a yellow baseboard. Is this for wildlife photographers who only photograph parrots?
 

warden

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cliveh said:
What colour is your easel? And what enlarger manufacturer in their right mind would make an enlarger with a yellow baseboard. Is this for wildlife photographers who only photograph parrots?
Click to expand...
I misunderstood. The baseboard is unpainted wood (beseler) and the easel is yellow. It’s a Saunders easel. It’s easier to focus if I use paper.
 

wiltw

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cliveh said:
I don't use paper underneath and I thought grain focus scopes were designed to compensate for this?
Click to expand...
How can there be compensation for a UNKNOWN thickness of enlarging paper? At best it is a guess for amount of compensation. Do you adjust it for single weight or double weight backing? which brand?
 
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cliveh

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The easel is yellow?
 

MattKing

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cliveh said:
What colour is your easel? And what enlarger manufacturer in their right mind would make an enlarger with a yellow baseboard.
Click to expand...
The very popular Saunders easels (among others) use a relatively non-reflective yellow paint - I understand that it minimizes halation arising due to the enlarger light passing through the paper and then reflecting back through the paper again.
And by the way, another variable that is not discussed in the video is our ability to differentiate between the "sharpness" of two different focus settings - I challenge anyone to try to determine how much one needs to change the focus on the enlarger in order to compensate for the thickness of the paper.
 

MattKing

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Lachlan Young

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wiltw said:
How can there be compensation for a UNKNOWN thickness of enlarging paper? At best it is a guess for amount of compensation.
Click to expand...

Rather more to the point, the variance in flatness of the paper on the easel itself, and all the other tolerances in the enlarging system are realistically greater than the thickness of a sheet of silver gelatin coated paper. The sort of enlargers most folk use aren't metrology instruments (how many people are really using machines intended for image rectification in cartography?).

If sticking a bit of paper under the base of the magnifier really made a difference, focus magnifier manufacturers would make a huge song and dance about compensating for it (and charge you for the pleasure). The reality is that it's some sort of fairly pointless prophylactic for a problem that seems to hover somewhere between psychosomatic and placebo effects - and what I've almost universally found to be the root of these claimed paper thickness caused focusing 'faults' is errant/ inept setting of the dioptre correction on the aerial focusing magnifier.
 

wiltw

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Speed Ez El's, vintage 1960s by AJ Ganz Co.



Saunders easel for 8x10" with flatter paper hold than Speed Ez El



I have a 2003 catalog from Calumet that shows 7 different models of Saunders yellow easels, each one available in multiple sizes.
 
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cliveh

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The only thing I could compare a yellow easel with, is perhaps the Allegro launched in 1973 – with its now-famous Quartic (or square) steering wheel.
 

pentaxuser

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This has been a thread before and the last time it was discussed I thought that someone(s) provided a mathematical proof that the DoF more than compensated for any difference that a piece of paper made

Mind you it would appear that that proof, assuming it was genuine, has made no difference to anyone's view. It appears that like agitation regimes ( Kodak v Ilford) or pre-wet v no prewet( again Kodak v Ilford) each person maintains his/her belief. It operates a bit like which party you vote for.

Acid test: Make the say 10 prints with and without a piece of paper, presumably of the same thickness, marking the back each time. Put those prints away for a few days then return and shuffle them and see if you can tell which is which.

pentaxuser
 
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