Using FujiFilm c41 Chemistry

[MingMingPhoto]

Hi all, Right now I'm using Kodak flexicolor LU Lorr developer, Ra Bleach Nr, and nr Fixer Replenisher.

Unfortunately Kodak is changing hands and switching the corperate level operation to China + Covid is making them slow to restock on the chemicals.

I'm looking to us Fuji chemicals instead till they get their shit together....

Please doew anyone have advice on what fuji chemicals I'll need to buy to replace the chemiclas I use now?

I jsut purchased https://www.uniquephoto.com/index.c...roductID/62468DDB-1283-469A-ABC3-0B6502F88703 but didn't realize it needed a starter till after I got it. idk what starter to get though

 

[cmacd123]

Why not go to THIS page : https://www.fujifilm.com/us/en/business/photofinishing/photographic-chemicals/c-41#

and download the .pdf files. you will proably want to read them anyway.

 

[MingMingPhoto]

I also want advice from humans. I'll read those too though

 

[cmacd123]

I would guess that unless the humans work in a photo lab, that Fuji film's documents are more authoritative.

 

[MingMingPhoto]

Humans have a lot more insight and advice that stems from experience to offer than a stagnent document. but thank you anyways

 

[koraks]

I jsut purchased https://www.uniquephoto.com/index.c...roductID/62468DDB-1283-469A-ABC3-0B6502F88703 but didn't realize it needed a starter till after I got it.

I find bleach works OK even if you leave out the starter. Developer is a different story; you need to mix that *exactly* according to the manufacturer's specs. Fixer never (AFAIK) comes with one anyway. With both bleach and fix the dilutions etc. aren't very critical - they're both processes that go to completion, so it just needs to be 'enough'. Want to know what 'enough' is? Check the datasheet.

I pretty much only use Fuji RA (rapid access) chemistry at the moment. When buying a new batch, here's what I do:
* Scoot over to the website of my preferred supplier
* Check which developer (& starter), bleach and fix he stocks. Note product numbers/SKU's, as product names are confusing and not always consistently used (especially Fuji's)!!
* Go to FujiFilm website and locate the appropriate datasheets for the dev/blech/fix I found
* Evaluate datasheet on mixing instructions and any possible caveats (usually none; C41 is C41 after all). Note especially dilutions and processing times (and temperatures) per step, and replenishment rates.
* Proceed to buy the chemistry if I like what I see in the datasheet.

As you can tell, it involves very little advice from humans - albeit not directly. The problem with human advice is that it comes in two forms:
1: Direct word-of-mouth from friends & acquaintances. They generally have ONE preferred product from ONE source and not much insight into comparisons. So if I do what they do, I'm stuck with that SINGLE product, whether I can get my hands on it or not. Not flexible, don't like.
2: Threads on message boards. Suffers to a somewhat lesser extent from (1), but if you read those on Photrio, you'd almost think that Kodak LORR is the only viable option. Whatever I can glean about other brands is fragmented, suffers from poor/inaccurate product identification, is/was posted by people who developed ONE batch of film that was out of date by 15 years and call themselves 'expert', etc. etc.

Whereas if I fly by the instructions in the manufacturer's datasheets, I know I'm using the best information out there, period. It's clear, it's complete, it's certain to relate to the product I'm buying, it's based on actual R&D and subject to QA procedures...in short, it's the FIRST and FOREMOST data source you should use.

Just my 2 cents. But PLEASE...IGNORE my advice! Seriously. Stick with the datasheet.

 

[foc]

Can I ask how you are using your C41 chemistry?
Are you using one shot or a replenished system?

 

[Henning Serger]

Actually, we have quite a few people here who used to operate photo labs. I am too interested in this matter, particularly how Fuji chems compare to Flexicolor (practical shelf life, quality, etc). You are not going to find this in their data sheets.

I know several professional labs and have regular contact to them. Some are using the Fuji chemicals for years, and some others have switched in the last three years from Kodak or Tetenal to Fuji (switched at first because of availability problems with Kodak and Tetenal).
All are very satiesfied with the Fuji chemicals. And some of those who have switched consider them now being even better and currently the best quality on the market.

I am using the Fuji Hunt E6 kit for my home colour reversal processing, and the quality ist outstanding. Best results I have ever got.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[halfaman]

I am also a happy user of Fuji minilab chemistry even I still use Kodak Flexicolor RA fixer because it was cheaper. Unfourtenately euroepan products, or at least the Fuji Hunt denominations, don't seem to reach the US market so I can't give you any advice about particular choices.

 

[MattKing]

Actually, we have quite a few people here who used to operate photo labs. I am too interested in this matter, particularly how Fuji chems compare to Flexicolor (practical shelf life, quality, etc). You are not going to find this in their data sheets.

Actually, it isn't that uncommon to find data and sale sheets that compare products between companies. Sales people use that sort of information to try to convince regular users (labs) to switch.

Ok, here's one example where datasheets don't work for me. Fuji's PDF for C-41 fixer states that the concentrate shelf life of just 8 weeks, once opened. That's for a 2L bottle.

Really?

Absolutely.
That describes typical behavior for a lab that uses control strips and seeks to keep results completely within specifications. It would normally be quite conservative, because performance variation costs quality labs money!
However, a discussion on places like Photrio is more likely to reference the experiences of low volume users who regularly work outside target specifications.
Comparison of the datasheets is still useful - if Fuji's datasheet says 8 weeks, and Kodak's says 16, that is at least an indication you can squeeze longer, not quite perfect results from the Kodak.

 

[cmacd123]

Comparison of the datasheets is still useful - if Fuji's datasheet says 8 weeks, and Kodak's says 16, that is at least an indication you can squeeze longer, not quite perfect results from the Kodak.

all the shelf life date are assuming that "It just has to work" so one may be able to extend them, BUT a lab who does batches of 20 rolls of customers film is not likely to take that chance.

 

[halfaman]

The C41 RA fixer concentrate, which is based in ammonium thiocyanate, has a very long shelf life. Much more than 8 or 16 weeks. I have it opened for a year and still works perfectly.

 

[Henning Serger]

The C41 RA fixer concentrate, which is based in ammonium thiocyanate, has a very long shelf life. Much more than 8 or 16 weeks. I have it opened for a year and still works perfectly.

Exactly.
My experience with Fuji's chemistry is that the numbers given in the data sheets are very conservative, cautious and on the extreme safe side. And that you can easily get longer shelf life under proper storage conditions.

Best regards,
Henning

 

[Mr Bill]

Actually, we have quite a few people here who used to operate photo labs. I am too interested in this matter, particularly how Fuji chems compare to Flexicolor (practical shelf life, quality, etc). You are not going to find this in their data sheets.

Hi, this thing about practical shelf life is not something that "proper" processing labs will have much experience with (or at least SHOULD not). It's just not a good business practice to be using what may be "marginal" chemicals. So in this case, the point where some chemicals become completely unusable, it's probably an area where the amateur or hobbyist is more knowledgeable.

Ok, here's one example where datasheets don't work for me. Fuji's PDF for C-41 fixer states that the concentrate shelf life of just 8 weeks, once opened. That's for a 2L bottle.

Really?

That describes typical behavior for a lab that uses control strips and seeks to keep results completely within specifications. It would normally be quite conservative,...

My experience with Fuji's chemistry is that the numbers given in the data sheets are very conservative, cautious and on the extreme safe side.

I think that, like many things, the so-called shelf life is gonna be seen through the eyeglasses of one's expectations. If you are a "proper" lab you're probably gonna see a maker's stated shelf life as something of a guarantee. Whereas a hobbyist may tend to think of shelf life as the point where a chemical is on the verge of "collapse," where it completely fails.

As an example, in my "big lab" experience we used to make "contingency plans" for foreseeable chemical problems. (I know this sounds a bit nutty to regular people, but when you use quantities that cannot be readily supplied, and the business relies on these things, well, it's a good practice to be prepared.) Anyway we always saw a potential risk, when mixing our color developers from individual components, of getting some sort of a contaminant that could make them unusable. And in a worst case, perhaps the contaminated developer (replenisher) makes its way into the processors.

So we made a formal plan to always have a "known good" backup supply of developers to tide us over in the case of an emergency. In our case we considered Kodak packaged chemicals as "known good." So we would always keep on hand an emergency supply of such, according to what our plan called for. As I recall the (largest size) Kodak packaged developers had a stated shelf life of something like 18 months (maybe it was two years; I don't recall for sure). When we approached the end of the stated shelf life the chem mix operators would be directed to use up the emergency supply and a new emergency supply would be ordered.

The point is that we considered that emergency supply as perfectly good, in spec chemicals. And we knew that Kodak would back them up - if there were any deficiency I'm sure that Kodak would have replaced them. Now, I'm speaking of a time before Kodak's bankruptcy - I have no idea what the current situation would be like. But this is how we viewed the top tier suppliers, seeing the stated shelf life as a sort of guarantee.

Fwiw I think the same sort of "expectation" applies when looking at stated "rolls per liter" from different chemical suppliers. Sometimes an aftermarket chemical supplier will quote capacity numbers several times greater than Kodak's. I see the Kodak numbers as conservative, where the processing will not likely fall out of a certain spec range (based on processed "control strips," as Matt King has suggested). Whereas some smaller aftermarket companies might be basing their capacity numbers on a barely acceptable process, even increasing development time to stretch things further. And perhaps stating that this is at the discretion of the user, based on what is acceptable to them.

Anyway these are my personal views of the situation, coming from now out-of-date experience.

 

[sillo]

Reviving this thread since I'm currently in the same boat. I'm looking to make the switch to Fuji, but am trying to find if there's anywhere where I don't have to buy 6 x 1 liter bottles of starter at once.

The two products I'm looking at are replenisher (600007031) and starter (600021523). The fuji document linked further up seems to be out of date on the product numbers. They list the starter as 600005425 and through my googling seems to be no longer produced.

 

[McDiesel]

@sillo I am in the same boat. Switching to Fuji C-41 developer, and I still have plenty of Kodak developer starter left. Initially I assumed that developer starters are interchangeable but just discovered in Fuji data sheets that they require a different amount of starter vs Kodak. Will be watching this thread with great interest.

 

[mshchem]

I've used Kodak starters in a pinch, but now have Fuji starters. A lot of the Fuji starters, in the US come in gallon bottles. I just bought RA4 starter, over 50 bucks with shipping and tax from Unique Photo. Most of these starters last forever.

 

[sillo]

Yeah, the longevity isn't really the issue, I just don't need 6 liters of the stuff. My 1ish liter bottle of Kodak starter barely has a dent in it and I've been using it for a year now.

 

[Mr Bill]

The two products I'm looking at are replenisher (600007031)...

My 1ish liter bottle of Kodak starter barely has a dent in it...

I looked up the replenisher #; it's Fuji CN16 MV Developer Replenisher, spec'd at a replenishment rate = 25 ml/roll, 135-24.

I did some calculations last year, in a very roundabout way, to estimate how much LORR (Kodak) starter would be needed for this Fuji replenisher. I've not verified calcs, so use these numbers at your own risk. (I'd suggest a test development first, vs a known-good developer.)

They are...
200 ml water
23 ml Kodak LORR starter
777 ml Fuji CN16 replenisher (spec replen rate = 25 ml/roll, 135-24)
1 liter final volume

Again, test first to verify!

 

[BMbikerider]

I have used Fuji C41 but I found their mixing instructions not 100% clear and quantities of concentrates quite difficult to measure accurately. When it all comes together it is very good..I was using it in the use once and discard and even then the developer concentrates went off. The bleach and fix are very stable.

 

[koraks]

the developer concentrates went off

IME it works better to mix them all in working stock and store those under good conditions. The develop lasts a loooong time like that.

 

[Tom Kershaw]

IME it works better to mix them all in working stock and store those under good conditions. The develop lasts a loooong time like that.

This is what I do, and would agree the developer (replenisher) lasts a long time in this configuration. https://silverprint.co.uk/collections/colour-chemistry/products/xc954693

 

[MingMingPhoto]

Reviving this thread since I'm currently in the same boat. I'm looking to make the switch to Fuji, but am trying to find if there's anywhere where I don't have to buy 6 x 1 liter bottles of starter at once.

The two products I'm looking at are replenisher (600007031) and starter (600021523). The fuji document linked further up seems to be out of date on the product numbers. They list the starter as 600005425 and through my googling seems to be no longer produced.

Hey Sillo, I called Buzz at Pakor, and he told me for the Fuji RA and the Kodak RA chemicals the starter is interchangable. Idk what chemicals you're using but if you're using the Fuji RA chemicals you can use 1 bottle (2l) of the dev replenisher, 125ml of kodak or fuji starter, and 3 L of water to make 5L of working solution. The Bleach, I also treat as if it's Kodak Bleach - Fuji says to mix it with water, but I don't I juse pure bleach and toss it once it turns too brown, and for the Fuji Fixer I mix half fix half water... same as I usuallly would do for kodak. And I provess like 20 rolls with 500ml of fixer or till the fixer looks toooooo deep maroon.

hope this helps!

 

[MingMingPhoto]

Can I ask how you are using your C41 chemistry?
Are you using one shot or a replenished system?

Hi Sorry for the late reply. I'm using the dev one shot (4 rolls at a time for 500ml), the bleach (16 rolls/till it turns too brown then toss), and fixer 20 rolls approx then toss.
When I get a fancy machine, or a densitometer I'll start learning how to do replenishment

 

[McDiesel]

Again, test first to verify!

I bookmarked your post. Thank you for this! Do you mind sharing, on a high level, how did you do these calculations? Is there a common variable in Kodak's Z-131 and Fuji data sheets that allows to infer the starter-to-replenisher ratio?