Using Beseler Color 8x10 tube to develop 2-4 sheets of 4x5; minimum soup needed?

[BHuij]

I'm going to make the switch from tray processing my 4x5 sheets to using the Beseler Color 8x10 tubes on the Besler rotary base. I'm doing okay with the tray processing, but I think this will be easier, give more consistent results, and use my chemistry more economically.

I'm well aware that HC-110 and Rodinal (my two favored developers) each have their own requirements for a minimum amount of syrup per roll of film (or per 4 sheets of 4x5, in this case). Not worried about undershooting that.

What I am interested to know is the minimum and maximum amounts of actual soup I can use in the tube without running into problems (i.e. uneven development because of too little liquid, or something funky because there was too much liquid for it to rotate properly).

Basically I think my process will go something like this:

1. Load 2-4 sheets in the dark
2. Place on rotary base and level side-to-side
3. Pour in presoak water at 68 deg F, turn on rotation for 1-2 minutes
4. Dump out presoak, pour in developer at 68 deg F, turn on rotation for prescribed time
5. Dump out developer, pour in stop bath, and run for a minute or so
6. Pour stop bath back, pour in fixer, and run for 5-10 mins
7. Pour back fixer, remove sheets from tube, wash and give them a minute in the Photo Flo
8. Hang up to dry

Sound about right?

Based on my understanding of minimum syrup amounts per roll for Rodinal and HC-110, I could easily get away with 3oz of soup at 1:50 for 2 sheets in Rodinal (1.8ml syrup), or 6oz of soup for 2 sheets in HC-110(H), which would be 2.8ml of syrup. Can anyone confirm or refute my math here?

 

[Konical]

Good Morning, BH,

No problem with your math; my possibly faulty memory tells me that your figures probably agree closely with the those originally recommended by the drum makers for color print processing. I've been rotary-processing B & W 4 × 5 sheet film for several decades, although in a Chromega drum. Given that the chemical costs are a rather small factor (although there has been a somewhat unpleasant increase in recent years), I have always preferred to err on the side of too much rather than too little. I suspect that I could be getting by fine with 3-4 oz. in most cases, but I generally consider 8-10 oz. my minimum. Normally, I use 10-12 oz. of developer for four sheets. I use about the same for fixer and hypo clear; the costs there are insignificant, especially with reusable fixer, so why chance using too little?

 

[BHuij]

Right, sounds good. TBH I was more concerned with whether there was a hard maximum amount of liquid to put in these tubes before some weird issue starts coming up which might affect negative density or uniformity. Thanks!

 

[Kilgallb]

I use a Unicolour 8x10 drum with 75ml of D76 for up to 4 sheets. 75ml is the minimum no matter the number of sheets to get coverage.

 

[BHuij]

I'm using either 100ml (Rodinal 1:50) or 150ml (HC-110 Dil H) to make sure I get a minimum of 2ml syrup. Only ever doing 2 sheets at a time. So far the results are wonderful. Should have switched to this from tray processing ages ago. It's so much easier and more consistent.

 

[BHuij]

Things have been going well with this technique and I have most of my development times dialed in.

I am having a bit of trouble getting FP4+ to give me a good N development at 1:50 dilution without going under 5 minutes. I'm rating the FP4+ at EI 64. Am I safe to assume that since I'm doing a 2-minute presoak and using effectively "perfect" agitation technique that is far more consistent than anything I could achieve with a hand tank or a tray, it's okay to go under 5 minutes by a bit (probably around 4:30 or 4:45)? Or will I be better off switching up to a 1:75 or 1:100 dilution to extend my time?

 

[Konical]

Good Morning, BH,

I think your assumption is probably correct, although I've never used FP-4 in 4 × 5, so I can't be sure.

I've rotary-processed quite a bit of Kodak Commercial, a 4 × 5 film meant for copying B & W photos. Kodak's recommended continuous-agitation processing time for that film in HC-110B is very short, a little under three minutes if I recall correctly. When reduced contrast was necessary, I've even used times as short as about two minutes with excellent results--completely even development. Like you, I use a two-minute pre-soak. I would have no fear of times significantly under five minutes with rotary processing; obviously, a test would be advisable before processing anything important.

Konical

 

[MattKing]

There are two potential problems with short development times:
1) potential uneven development; and
2) the difficulty of ensuring consistency with your development - a small change in time can make a relatively large difference in the results.
With respect to the first issue, a pre-wet probably helps.
With respect to both issues, consistency of technique becomes much more important with short development times. By that I mean things like fill times, volume of developer, consistency of agitation, including when agitation starts and stops and when stop bath is added.
And this brings up a chance to say something I always enjoy saying: if you use short development times, you really need to use stop bath, rather than a water rinse.

 

[wiltw]

Keep in mind that there are TWO capacity-related issues that have to be considered...

1. Amount of liquid needed to chemically process a particular number of square inches of film TO COMPLETION
2. Amount of liquid need to mechanically COVER adequately the surface area to be processed

You want to consider both of the above in these situations...
Or you might find that while you can cover 4 pieces of film in only 4 oz. of liquid in the tank, only 4 oz. of developer would be exhausted and unable to fully develop the film...so you must pour in a total of 8 oz.
Oryou might find that you can process two 4x5 pieces of film with 8 oz. of liquid covering the film, but 8 oz. of liquid actually can process 80 sq.in. of film (and you are processing only 40 sq.in.

 

[BHuij]

I'm currently using a water rinse directly after pouring out the developer, followed by stop bath, which is primarily to prolong the life of my fixer.

From the points you bring up, while I'm sure it's possible to get good results using shorter than 5 min developing times, I'm leaning towards just going to 1:100 dilution when developing FP4+ for N. Seems easier to keep things consistent.

 

[MattKing]

I'm currently using a water rinse directly after pouring out the developer, followed by stop bath, which is primarily to prolong the life of my fixer.

I would suggest just using the stop bath. You won't gain any benefit from both.

 

[wiltw]

Keep in mind that there are TWO capacity-related issues that have to be considered...

1. Amount of liquid needed to chemically process a particular number of square inches of film TO COMPLETION
2. Amount of liquid need to mechanically COVER adequately the surface area to be processed

You want to consider both of the above in these situations...
Or you might find that while you can cover 4 pieces of film in only 4 oz. of liquid in the tank, only 4 oz. of developer would be exhausted and unable to fully develop the film...so you must pour in a total of 8 oz.
Or, the opposite, you might find that you can sufficiently cover two 4x5 pieces of film with 8 oz. of liquid covering the film, but 8 oz. of liquid actually can process 80 sq.in. of film (and you are processing only 40 sq.in.) so the capacity of the solution is not being consumed.

 

[BHuij]

Yes, I'm aware of both and so far have not had any issues.

Edit: And @MattKing I like to tell myself that the water stop is helping my shadow detail and the acid stop is preserving my fixer May just cut out the water stop though if it's not actually doing anything.