Using a press camera for wet plate ?

[Yaeli]

Hello everyone,

So, I finally took the crazy step and bought a large format camera, a Graflex Super Speed Graphic (surprisingly cheap, in my opinion, considering its state, but it's from a very reputable website, so...). For now, I plan to simply use direct positive paper in it, but I have been in love with how wet plate collodion look for a long, long time. I was just wondering if it is possible to do wet plate with such a camera, and if there are precautions I should take if I ever do it (since it's all metal, for example).

Thank you beforehand for your answers,
Sincerely,
Yaeli.

 

[mshchem]

Is this the version with the 22.5 volt battery? I think these batteries are available on Ebay. Not sure about fitment. Pretty camera.

 

[Yaeli]

Is this the version with the 22.5 volt battery? I think these batteries are available on Ebay. Not sure about fitment. Pretty camera.

It is, yes. But the batteries are not necessary for it to work. They are only used for the electric shutter release on the side of the camera. If you use a release cable, you don't need the batteries.

 

[mshchem]

It is, yes. But the batteries are not necessary for it to work. They are only used for the electric shutter release on the side of the camera. If you use a release cable, you don't need the batteries.

Great! Very handsome camera. I use somewhat older top rangefinder Crown Graphic cameras. Wonderful cameras. I would be afraid of getting stains on such a pretty camera. But I would try it. Nice to have a light easy to carry camera!

 

[koraks]

I was just wondering if it is possible to do wet plate with such a camera, and if there are precautions I should take if I ever do it (since it's all metal, for example).

Sure, it'll work.
It's not difficult to avoid spills on the camera when doing wet plate. I've done wet plate with a metal field camera for a while. I think I might have gotten a single drop of silver nitrate on it once. No corrosion or damage.

 

[Yaeli]

Sure, it'll work.
It's not difficult to avoid spills on the camera when doing wet plate. I've done wet plate with a metal field camera for a while. I think I might have gotten a single drop of silver nitrate on it once. No corrosion or damage.

Great ! Thank you for your answer ! I think I'll take a workshop before diving into that anyway, so I'll probably learn how to avoid spilling too much ^^.

Great! Very handsome camera. I use somewhat older top rangefinder Crown Graphic cameras. Wonderful cameras. I would be afraid of getting stains on such a pretty camera. But I would try it. Nice to have a light easy to carry camera!

Yes, I'm very glad I found it ! Here in Europe, large format cameras are not easy to find at a reasonable price (or I don't know where to look ^^) : Graflex are quite rare (and rarely in good condition), most Toyo and Wista and other more recent brands are rare too, and you're stuck with the super expensive Linhof or you have to pay the 20% tax to get something from outside Europe... So yes, I'm quite happy. It appears in really good condition, and I can't wait to try it

 

[koraks]

Great ! Thank you for your answer ! I think I'll take a workshop before diving into that anyway, so I'll probably learn how to avoid spilling too much ^^.

I wouldn't worry about it too much. By the time the plate is in the holder, most of the dripping has already stopped. The 'worst' bit is when you just take the plate from the silver bath. You can put it down on a tissue or something and keep it there until the dripping is done; then put the plate into the holder. Any stray drops will generally be caught by the holder at that point; nothing ends up on or in the camera generally.

 

[mshchem]

You will have more staining on you and your clothes than the camera

Ought to be a lot of fun!

 

[retina_restoration]

Many people work with a Speed Graphic for wet plate work. The only real difference is the chemistry and a specialized plate holder.

 

[Yaeli]

I wouldn't worry about it too much. By the time the plate is in the holder, most of the dripping has already stopped. The 'worst' bit is when you just take the plate from the silver bath. You can put it down on a tissue or something and keep it there until the dripping is done; then put the plate into the holder. Any stray drops will generally be caught by the holder at that point; nothing ends up on or in the camera generally.

Perfect ! Thank you for explaining that !

You will have more staining on you and your clothes than the camera

Ought to be a lot of fun!

I'll be me one of those cute cooking apron

Many people work with a Speed Graphic for wet plate work. The only real difference is the chemistry and a specialized plate holder.

It is a significant difference, at least for someone who mostly shot with SLRs (most of them featuring at least aperture priority mode), modern autofocus SLRs, point and shoots (like my Olympus XA2), and with DSLRs ! I will stick to the instant back and direct positive paper for now, to get used to the "machine", then probably add some B&W sheet film, and I'll see if I still have the motivation for going down the collodion path after that ^^.

 

[mshchem]

Silver nitrate is going to be breathtaking in cost with the climb in silver prices. Crazy.

You will have a lot of fun with this camera with most any media you choose.

 

[retina_restoration]

Silver nitrate is going to be breathtaking in cost with the climb in silver prices. Crazy.

You will have a lot of fun with this camera with most any media you choose.

Indeed, I was shocked 2 weeks ago when - for the first time in two years - I had to re-stock with 100 grams of AgNO3 and it cost me over $200 usd! That’s twice what I last paid for it (when I bought 1/2 pound from ArtCraft). Yikes.

 

[loccdor]

Yes I just noticed that yesterday. My physical gold and silver investments are worth 3 times more than when I bought them a few years ago... these metals always seem to go in jumps and starts.

 

[mshchem]

Indeed, I was shocked 2 weeks ago when - for the first time in two years - I had to re-stock with 100 grams of AgNO3 and it cost me over $200 usd! That’s twice what I last paid for it (when I bought 1/2 pound from ArtCraft). Yikes.

I remember (probably in the 80's) for an analytical lab where I worked, I bought 20 1 pound bottles of silver nitrate reagent grade (just happened to be Eastman brand) $88/pound

 

[Yaeli]

Silver nitrate is going to be breathtaking in cost with the climb in silver prices. Crazy.

You will have a lot of fun with this camera with most any media you choose.

I heard about this, indeed. It costs 225 euros here in France. From what I gather, this makes each 4X5 aluminum plate cost between 6 and 7 euros, all included. This is quite expensive, but it's still "reasonable". Kodak color sheet films, for ex, cost around the same per sheet (I know, B&W is much cheaper, but...). Anyway. I'm not there yet I'm going to go slow, learn how to use the camera, learn about everything, probably do a workshop too before I even consider or not trying it myself.

I do hope to have fun with the camera, yes ! It's going to take a lot of getting used to, especially for someone like me who's used to "running and gunning" (I did mostly weddings and sports events so far, where I admit that having a modern, high tech digital camera is a blessing ^^).

 

[koraks]

this makes each 4X5 aluminum plate cost between 6 and 7 euros, all included

That sounds pretty high. Now, when I did wet plate, I didn't use aluminum plates and used glass instead. I bought this glass locally in larger sheets and cut it to size myself. The amount of collodion and silver that go onto each plate are quite modest. I never really ran the numbers, but I'd be surprised if a single plate cost me more than about €0.50.

 

[Yaeli]

That sounds pretty high. Now, when I did wet plate, I didn't use aluminum plates and used glass instead. I bought this glass locally in larger sheets and cut it to size myself. The amount of collodion and silver that go onto each plate are quite modest. I never really ran the numbers, but I'd be surprised if a single plate cost me more than about €0.50.

It's very possible that I completely overestimated the cost. All my "calculations" are made based on Google searches about the price of the chemistry and the price of the aluminium plates, so they might be very off. For ex, the plates cost around 1.5 euros each, and most "kits" go for 200 euros (generally including "only" 500ml of silver nitrate bath and 500ml of collodion). They apparently allow for about 50 plates max before you need to buy silver nitrate (50 may even be generous, from what I've read). So that's 4 euros of chemistry + 1.5 euros of plate per plate, so 5.5 euros (which I rounded up to 6, considering the risk of spilling when you first start). But those calculations might be completely off (just like what I said about direct positive paper in my other thread ^^)! They're just what I found online.
I imagine it's cheaper if you buy and mix the ingredients yourself, but here in France, you can't buy the individual ingredients from the rare stores that offer them unless you can first show them your work and prove that you're actually doing that process.

 

[koraks]

Keep in mind that the silver bath is something you sometimes add a little silver nitrate to whenever needed. You don't typically replace the entire bath as that would indeed be enormously costly. So the cost is really only the attrition of the silver in the bath and not the entire bath itself (something like 50-60g of silver nitrate for a 500ml bath).

Also, personally when I got into wet plate I constructed the smallest bath I could manage, which was around 165ml for 4x5". This worked surprisingly well and was of course very economical. I still have it - and I intend to resurrect it this year.

here in France, you can't buy the individual ingredients from the rare stores that offer them

You can shop around on e.g. eBay etc. for the various items. I'm sure that in France you can do that just fine as there's not a whole lot that goes into the process that you're not allowed to purchase as a consumer. In fact, for wet plate, I can't think of anything that would be particularly difficult; there may be some end user declarations involved if you're going to purchase stuff like ether (which I've never done btw).

 

[Yaeli]

Keep in mind that the silver bath is something you sometimes add a little silver nitrate to whenever needed. You don't typically replace the entire bath as that would indeed be enormously costly. So the cost is really only the attrition of the silver in the bath and not the entire bath itself (something like 50-60g of silver nitrate for a 500ml bath).

Also, personally when I got into wet plate I constructed the smallest bath I could manage, which was around 165ml for 4x5". This worked surprisingly well and was of course very economical. I still have it - and I intend to resurrect it this year.



You can shop around on e.g. eBay etc. for the various items. I'm sure that in France you can do that just fine as there's not a whole lot that goes into the process that you're not allowed to purchase as a consumer. In fact, for wet plate, I can't think of anything that would be particularly difficult; there may be some end user declarations involved if you're going to purchase stuff like ether (which I've never done btw).

165ml ? Do you have to make the bath almost horizontal for it to coat the plate ?
I didn't know they sold those things on Ebay ^^. You do indeed have to give end use declaration for ether in France. It would actually be slightly easier for me, since I have my own tiny "company", with a registered number under photographic activities. So it's less of a problem to get it, in theory at least.

 

[koraks]

165ml ? Do you have to make the bath almost horizontal for it to coat the plate ?

No, it's an upright bath conceptually identical to the ones you can buy. Just scaled down to just fit a 4x5" plate.
Arguably, a larger bath will be more robust and will require less frequent maintenance, but I've never found this to be a real problem. Initially I had some problems with my silver bath, but those were unrelated to its volume. It was just the normal type of fogging issue that people often report with collodion. At some point I decided to just go with a fairly acidic bath, which solved the issue.

I didn't know they sold those things on Ebay ^^

The trick is to break down your shopping list and look for items individually. Much of what you need is pretty generic and can be had in various places, not necessarily photo-related.

And yes, having a business entity can make things easier sometimes.

 

[retina_restoration]

The per-plate cost is actually quite modest, as koraks has intimated. I think you’ve overestimated by quite a bit. I rarely use aluminum ”trophy plate” anymore, simply because it doesn’t give a very good black compared to a japanned tin or an ambrotype. (And it’s actually quite expensive imo)
For years now, I have worked mostly on glass to make collodion negatives, since they offer so much more information to interpret. Nothing beats a print made from a collodion negative. I use glass sourced from my local “dollar store” - it’s found in those Chinese picture frames, and it’s about 1.5mm thick, easily cut to size and probably the cheapest material you can work with. The last time I bought picture frames, I bought the 11x14 inch size, and you can make four 5x7 pieces out of one. That ends up being about 25 cents each. (Note: I think these frames cost more than a dollar these days, but still…)

As for the silver bath, make a volume as big as you can afford: the bigger the volume, the less maintenance you have to do. You do NOT use up the silver bath and then discard it to make a new one, you maintain it by replenishing the silver, kind of like how you replenish a stock developer for re-use. If I make ten plates in one session, I measure the specific gravity of the silver bath at the end of the day, and if it has gone down more than a few points, I add silver nitrate to bring it up to the 1.073 that I typically aim for. Some sessions I do not add more AgNO3 because the SG has not dropped much - you won’t have to add silver after every single session. Often, it takes only a couple of grams - some days it needs only a pinch. Replenishing your silver bath isn’t really such an expensive prospect. The real expense is making the original bath.

The silver bath tank: if you are just working with 4x5 at the start, you don’t have to buy a specialized tank, you CAN just use a tray, as long as you have a way of keeping it in total darkness during the 3 minutes you have a plate sitting in it to sensitize it. It does not have to be a vertically canted tank - those are merely a convenience for those who do lots of plates.

If you haven't already acquired a collodion technique manual, I recommend Mark Osterman’s manual. It’s inexpensive and great for the beginner, but it doesn’t provide information about anything other than the basics of making tintype positives. If you want more than that, John Coffer’s manual is far more complete (but also far more expensive!).

 

[Yaeli]

No, it's an upright bath conceptually identical to the ones you can buy. Just scaled down to just fit a 4x5" plate.
Arguably, a larger bath will be more robust and will require less frequent maintenance, but I've never found this to be a real problem. Initially I had some problems with my silver bath, but those were unrelated to its volume. It was just the normal type of fogging issue that people often report with collodion. At some point I decided to just go with a fairly acidic bath, which solved the issue.

Oh, ok, I see. I found some that contain roughly 270ml. That's the smallest ones I found online. Can you replenish a tank with the already premade solution from the kits, or does it only work if you add the salts...

The per-plate cost is actually quite modest, as koraks has intimated. I think you’ve overestimated by quite a bit. I rarely use aluminum ”trophy plate” anymore, simply because it doesn’t give a very good black compared to a japanned tin or an ambrotype. (And it’s actually quite expensive imo)
For years now, I have worked mostly on glass to make collodion negatives, since they offer so much more information to interpret. Nothing beats a print made from a collodion negative. I use glass sourced from my local “dollar store” - it’s found in those Chinese picture frames, and it’s about 1.5mm thick, easily cut to size and probably the cheapest material you can work with. The last time I bought picture frames, I bought the 11x14 inch size, and you can make four 5x7 pieces out of one. That ends up being about 25 cents each. (Note: I think these frames cost more than a dollar these days, but still…)

As for the silver bath, make a volume as big as you can afford: the bigger the volume, the less maintenance you have to do. You do NOT use up the silver bath and then discard it to make a new one, you maintain it by replenishing the silver, kind of like how you replenish a stock developer for re-use. If I make ten plates in one session, I measure the specific gravity of the silver bath at the end of the day, and if it has gone down more than a few points, I add silver nitrate to bring it up to the 1.073 that I typically aim for. Some sessions I do not add more AgNO3 because the SG has not dropped much - you won’t have to add silver after every single session. Often, it takes only a couple of grams - some days it needs only a pinch. Replenishing your silver bath isn’t really such an expensive prospect. The real expense is making the original bath.

The silver bath tank: if you are just working with 4x5 at the start, you don’t have to buy a specialized tank, you CAN just use a tray, as long as you have a way of keeping it in total darkness during the 3 minutes you have a plate sitting in it to sensitize it. It does not have to be a vertically canted tank - those are merely a convenience for those who do lots of plates.

If you haven't already acquired a collodion technique manual, I recommend Mark Osterman’s manual. It’s inexpensive and great for the beginner, but it doesn’t provide information about anything other than the basics of making tintype positives. If you want more than that, John Coffer’s manual is far more complete (but also far more expensive!).

I might have overestimated the price, indeed. I based it on the kits found online, so maybe that's why.
I'm not necessarily a big fan of glass plates, in theory, but since I have no experience whatsoever, it doesn't mean much. I just like the "unbreakable" aspect of aluminium, and the fact that it's a one of kind thing that cannot be duplicated.
I will look into those manuals you mentioned, thanks !

 

[koraks]

Can you replenish a tank with the already premade solution from the kits, or does it only work if you add the salts...

I don't know what the premade solutions are, but I expect you can use those, yes. But personally I'd just buy some silver nitrate and some demineralized water and DIY it.

I'm not necessarily a big fan of glass plates, in theory, but since I have no experience whatsoever, it doesn't mean much. I just like the "unbreakable" aspect of aluminium, and the fact that it's a one of kind thing that cannot be duplicated.

IDK, preferences vary. I find aluminum too 'technical' for a collodion image. But mostly I also made negatives like @retina_restoration. The few ambrotypes I made were nice enough. Btw, in 4x5" size glass isn't all that fragile. Sure, if you drop it, it breaks. So don't drop it...

 

[Yaeli]

I don't know what the premade solutions are, but I expect you can use those, yes. But personally I'd just buy some silver nitrate and some demineralized water and DIY it.

It's apparently the 9% solution already made. All the kits I found here in Europe generally come with this :
1000 ml Thiosulfat powder for 4 liters of working solution
500 ml Silver nitrate solution 9%
1000 ml developer solution
500 ml ready to use Collodion
250 ml Sandarac glace with Lavendar oil

 

[retina_restoration]

It's apparently the 9% solution already made. All the kits I found here in Europe generally come with this :
1000 ml Thiosulfat powder for 4 liters of working solution
500 ml Silver nitrate solution 9%
1000 ml developer solution
500 ml ready to use Collodion
250 ml Sandarac glace with Lavendar oil

Buying your first chemistry as a kit like that isn't a bad idea — that's what I did back in 2016 and I never regretted it. It made things simpler to get started, and I appreciated that. But be aware that you will need to have more silver nitrate crystals available to replenish your silver bath before too long.