Useful life of Xtol

[Mainecoonmaniac]

I finally ordered some Xtol from hearing all the raving from APUGers. I also surfed the web about the developer. I plan to use it replenished. I think it's about 70ml per 80sq inches of film. Anyway, I've been hearing the useful life is about 6 months, while some say the useful life is indefinite. So what's your experience with Xtol reenished?

 

[markbarendt]

I finally ordered some Xtol from hearing all the raving from APUGers. I also surfed the web about the developer. I plan to use it replenished. I think it's about 70ml per 80sq inches of film. Anyway, I've been hearing the useful life is about 6 months, while some say the useful life is indefinite. So what's your experience with Xtol reenished?

I doubt there is a limit to the working solution's useful life as long as it gets some turnover.

After you have run about 70 rolls through "2-liters" of working solution you will have run about 5-liters of fresh Xtol through that "one" 2-liter working solution batch.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Hey Mark,

Thanks for the quick response. I don't process a lot of film only 10 rolls a month or sometimes a dozen sheets if 4x5 per month. Would Xtol last indefinitely when stored in a full, tightly stoppered bottle?

 

[PhotoJim]

With that volume, why don't you simply use one-shot development? It will be far more consistent.

In this case the stock solution will last about six months if stored in full bottles. It might last longer, but it can fail suddenly.

 

[tkamiya]

In my not-so-scientific test, stored in brown plastic bottles filled to top with no air, batch was fine at 8 months but not so at 10 months. Please note, I didn't take any special precautions such as using saran-wrap or use glass bottles. At 10 month time, it was inconsistent and weak, so I discarded it. After 6 months, I did clip test each and every time.

 

[fschifano]

I've got to agree with PhotoJim. You're not processing that much film, probably not enough to keep a replenished developer stable. If you're running 10 rolls a week through it, then the turnover is fast enough so that you don't see the effects of developer oxidation. But 10 rolls a month? Maybe not. I'd just use it diluted 1+1 as a one shot developer, not worry about replenishment rates, and enjoy consistent results. My $.02.

 

[brianmquinn]

At the rate you use it I would mix up the 5 liters and then split it to ten 500ml full glass bottles. Open a bottle of 500ml and use it all one shot. That is less than a dollar per developing session. If xtol is mixed with distilled water and stored in full glass bottles it will be good for years. I have tested this myself.

 

[markbarendt]

Hey Mark,

Thanks for the quick response. I don't process a lot of film only 10 rolls a month or sometimes a dozen sheets if 4x5 per month. Would Xtol last indefinitely when stored in a full, tightly stoppered bottle?

My working solution bottle is always kept full. Typically I pour off a liter into a plastic breaker to use for a batch. While that liter is "out working" I add 70ml for each roll I'm doing to the working solution bottle.

When that batch of film is done I pour the stuff in the beaker back into the working solution storage bottle, because I have added a fair amount of fresh Xtol already, it won't all fit. I just fill it overflowing and cap it.

I keep the stock solution in a recycled "wine box" so once filled no air is introduced during normal storage and use. It can suck in a little air when you get down to the last little bit in the box but at the rate you use it the rest would be gone within a few weeks.

At 10/month you will be buying your next batch of Xtol in about 4 months, then about every 7 months after that. There shouldn't be any issue in keeping stock that long.

 

[brianmquinn]

Here is a cut and paste of two posts I made to Photo Net in 2008.

(P.S.) I still am setting aside bottles of Xtol 2x stock and testing it to see if it is still good. I have never had a failure even with 3 year old 2x stock stored as described below.

Brian Quinn , Jul 27, 2008; 11:25 a.m.
I make Xtol up at 2x concentration and store it in 11oz. (330ml) Perrier water bottles. I tried to store in my darkroom fridge and it did crystallize but at room temperature it was fine (No Crystals). I open a bottle and dilute it 1:1 and that gives me 660ml of 1x developer for my tank. So I am always using developer from a full bottle. I have used bottles over 3 years after mixing it up and all is fine.

Brian Quinn , Jul 29, 2008; 10:38 a.m
One thing I forgot to point out in my earlier post is a key thing about long term storage of chemicals is to USE GLASS BOTTLES WITH METAL CAPS.

I little known fact is that plastic bottles will let oxygen in even if they are well capped. The oxygen will diffuse through the plastic (even a plastic cap) and oxidize the contents of the bottle. This is the reason that beer is sold in glass bottles with metal caps. Just a little oxidation of the beer ruins the taste. Beer that is sold in plastic bottles at sporting events has a very short shelf life. This is not usually a problem at a game as all the beer goes away very fast.

 

[markbarendt]

With that volume, why don't you simply use one-shot development? It will be far more consistent.

In this case the stock solution will last about six months if stored in full bottles. It might last longer, but it can fail suddenly.

The only time replenished Xtol is not consistent is during seasoning, roughly the first 5-10 rolls. So in real life that means 1 batch of 4 rolls at normal "fresh stock" times and 1 batch of 4 splitting the difference between the "fresh" and "seasoned" times. Third batch at seasoned time. By the forth batch it's stable and will remain so if maintained well.

After seasoning it is in my experience absolutely consistent.

The other thing that is over the top cool about replenishing is that if you need to develop say 2 sheets of 4x5 in a one liter tank or tray, you only use up 35ml of the stock.

One shot you would use up a whole liter.

Replenishment allows for very efficient use of the stock regardless of the batch and tank size.

 

[pentaxuser]

Here is a cut and paste of two posts I made to Photo Net in 2008.

(P.S.) I still am setting aside bottles of Xtol 2x stock and testing it to see if it is still good. I have never had a failure even with 3 year old 2x stock stored as described below.

Brian Quinn , Jul 27, 2008; 11:25 a.m.
I make Xtol up at 2x concentration and store it in 11oz. (330ml) Perrier water bottles. I tried to store in my darkroom fridge and it did crystallize but at room temperature it was fine (No Crystals). I open a bottle and dilute it 1:1 and that gives me 660ml of 1x developer for my tank. So I am always using developer from a full bottle. I have used bottles over 3 years after mixing it up and all is fine.

Brian Quinn , Jul 29, 2008; 10:38 a.m
One thing I forgot to point out in my earlier post is a key thing about long term storage of chemicals is to USE GLASS BOTTLES WITH METAL CAPS.

I little known fact is that plastic bottles will let oxygen in even if they are well capped. The oxygen will diffuse through the plastic (even a plastic cap) and oxidize the contents of the bottle. This is the reason that beer is sold in glass bottles with metal caps. Just a little oxidation of the beer ruins the taste. Beer that is sold in plastic bottles at sporting events has a very short shelf life. This is not usually a problem at a game as all the beer goes away very fast.

I think you are saying that if, say, you have a 5L packet of Xtol you mix it with distilled water to make 2.5L of solution to which you add an equal quantity of water( distilled again?) to make up a working stock solution.

So for a 250ml tank you extract 125ml and add 125mls for a full strength working solution. If you want a 1+1 solution you extract 63mls of double strength and make up to 250mls.

Have I got this right?

2 more questions if I may.

What is it about distilled water that makes Xtol keep longer?

What is it about a 2x concentrate that makes it keep longer than making up a normal strength 1x solution?

I am interested because I am about to get a 5L pack of Xtol for the first time but have been worried about my usage rate so a 2-3 year storage time is great. Actually 18 months would probably be OK.

I should add that I favour the wine bag storage method. Although the dispenser is plastic so at risk from some oxidisation, I have has good success with both DDX and Perceptol in such storage.

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[brianmquinn]

So for a 250ml tank you extract 125ml and add 125mls for a full strength working solution. If you want a 1+1 solution you extract 63mls of double strength and make up to 250mls.

Have I got this right? YES

2 more questions if I may.

What is it about distilled water that makes Xtol keep longer? Some tap water has impurities in it that will degrade the Xtol faster. With distilled you will not have this issue.

What is it about a 2x concentrate that makes it keep longer than making up a normal strength 1x solution? Probally nothing. I just mix it at 2x to save space and have half the number of bottles sitting around. 1X would probally work just the same.

I should add that I favour the wine bag storage method. Although the dispenser is plastic so at risk from some oxidisation, I have has good success with both DDX and Perceptol in such storage. Some wine bags are silver mylar and should work well. If the bag is see through plastic it will let quite a bit of oxygen in and I doubt you would get as long a life as glass bottles. But I don't know I have just chosen to go the glass bottle route.

PS I am Pentax Man myself.
645, MZ-S, PZ-1P, ZX-5n, Super Program, K1000 and of course last and least *istD

 

[brianmquinn]

On a side note. I recently out some Fomapan 100 in 120 size.
Shot off 6 test exposures. 3 in sun and 3 in open shade at EI 80, 125 and 200. Then repeated the same 6 shots again. I cut the roll in half. One half went into Rodinal 1+50 for 7.5min and the other into Xtol 1+0 for 5 min at 20C.

I must say I like both results but there is a very dramatic difference between two developers. Very much like shooting 2 different films. If you have not tried it out look into this film.

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

On a side note. I recently out some Fomapan 100 in 120 size.
Shot off 6 test exposures. 3 in sun and 3 in open shade at EI 80, 125 and 200. Then repeated the same 6 shots again. I cut the roll in half. One half went into Rodinal 1+50 for 7.5min and the other into Xtol 1+0 for 5 min at 20C.

I must say I like both results but there is a very dramatic difference between two developers. Very much like shooting 2 different films. If you have not tried it out look into this film.

That's intriguing. So what did you like better? The film souped in Rodinal or Xtol? What characteristic difference between the negs?

 

[MattKing]

I would assume that if you make up this double strength stock, you could then maintain a useful volume (~1 liter) of regular strength working solution for replenishment, but instead of adding 70ml of stock for each replenishment, add 35ml of the double strength stock, diluted 1:1 with fresh water.

To my mind, this would be good because it would reduce storage issues for us who are short of space.

 

[Maris]

My first (full to the top) 1 litre bottle of full strength Xtol ran for 7 years as a replenisher system. It did hundreds of films, 8x10. 4x5, and 120 format, and was replenished at the rate of 90ml per 8x10 equivalent. Apart from an occasional filtration through a coffee filter it got no special maintenance. After the first 4 films developer activity dropped to about 75% of fresh and stayed there year after year.

When I moved house the Xtol went into storage and when I tested it a 11 months later it had lost half its activity. So I started a new batch. Now four years on everything is running consistenly as before.

 

[brianmquinn]

That's intriguing. So what did you like better? The film souped in Rodinal or Xtol? What characteristic difference between the negs?

I would chose between developers based on the subject. If it was a photograph of a NICE child I would pick Xtol for nice smooth grain and gradation. If it were a photo of a GRUMPY KID I think the sharp and grainy Rodinol would work better. For a low grain scenic Xtol. For a dramatic misty morning maybe Rodinal. For a fine fabric Xtol. For old farm equipment Rodinol.
You get the idea. One film in the bag and you chose what mood you would like the print to convey. Then chose the developer.

 

[brianmquinn]

I use Xtol one shot at 1+0 or the 1+1 dilution and I go through about 3 to 4 five Liter mixes a year so it does not sit around long for me (except for my age test bottles). Still if you are worried about how active your stock is see the following page for an easy test.

http://www.covingtoninnovations.com/xtol/

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

I would chose between developers based on the subject. If it was a photograph of a NICE child I would pick Xtol for nice smooth grain and gradation. If it were a photo of a GRUMPY KID I think the sharp and grainy Rodinol would work better. For a low grain scenic Xtol. For a dramatic misty morning maybe Rodinal. For a fine fabric Xtol. For old farm equipment Rodinol.
You get the idea. One film in the bag and you chose what mood you would like the print to convey. Then chose the developer.

I guess it's like picking the right lens for your subject. It's a tool in your arsenal.

 

[Sirius Glass]

I found that after two years of replenishment of XTOL, the developer begins to slow down [proper time, slightly underdeveloped negatives]. So it is time to dump it by then.

Steve

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

I guess developer can be too seasoned

I found that after two years of replenishment of XTOL, the developer begins to slow down [proper time, slightly underdeveloped negatives]. So it is time to dump it by then.

Steve

So Xtol can be over seasoned? But do you get better results with replenished Xtol than using it one shot?

 

[Sirius Glass]

So Xtol can be over seasoned? But do you get better results with replenished Xtol than using it one shot?

The unused developer which is used as the replenisher, was slowly getting oxidized.

My experience has been that replenished XTOL gives the best results, followed by undiluted XTOL and last XTOL diluted 1:1 as a one shot. I have not gotten any XTOL diluted 1:1 as a one shot results that made that method any better than the other two.

Steve

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks Brian for answering my Qs on use of distilled water and 2x concentrate

pentaxuser

 

[Mainecoonmaniac]

Hey Steve, you offer great insight. I'm going to try to store Xtol replenisher in smaller bottles to avoid oxidation. Is it true that Xtol doesn't turn dark when it oxidizes? I would think that would make assessing the condition of the developer difficult.

Best,
Don

 

[fschifano]

XTOL does not turn color wen it's oxidized. That's about the only bad thing I can say about it.