Used Jobo or new Nova FP? (need temperature control)

[Jerevan]

Sorry if this is going to be a bit rambling ...

... but I am trying to sort out developing of B/W 135/120 roll film in a cold space, with only cold water access (cue Monty Python). The biggest issue is temperature control and that I have to heat the water. I've had issues with the fixer being too cold, needing to refix negatives to clear them.

Since it is cold (10 degrees celsius at the most) I am not totally sure a tray heater in conjuction with a roller and drum works out. I know from the lith printing business how fast open trays lose the temperature.

Since, the open tray is probably out, I have been thinking along the lines of either a new Nova FP 3/2 processor or a used Jobo CPE2. Going with a used Jobo seems to be a bit iffy, but 1100-1500 euros is a bit much for a new unit. Or is there some other way to do this?

 

[Richard Man]

I have had 2 Jobo, both used. Both work great. I started with the smaller CPA2 and upgraded to the larger CPE2 when I started 120/4x5. I suppose things could break, but generally I don't think it's a huge problem. Buy from a reputable person or source.

 

[klownshed]

Either would work fine. The advantage of the Jobo over the Nova is that one of the benefits of rotary processing is that you need less chemicals per tank. This can add up quite quickly and save a lot of money, The manual agitation required by the Nova gives you more control which can be a disadvantage (less consistency) as well as an advantage (you can use whatever agitation scheme/method you like).

 

[Kraus1971]

FWIW I've had good luck with

https://www.amazon.com/PolyScience-...1542115893&sr=8-3&keywords=Sous+Vide+creative
https://www.amazon.com/Cambro-12189..._rd_t=40701&psc=1&refRID=Y9MSKV38M00QBV7HKHW3

I've developed color and b&w film with it using Jobo drums and the Jobo roller. I've also used it to print color and B&W in drums. There are many combinations of larger/smaller heaters/containers based to match what you need.

 

[Jerevan]

Thanks for the ideas, gentlemen!

I was sort of thinking (I have one already) if it perhaps is possible to use a roller in a water bath in some way? Just dipping the tank in there, keeping it somewhat in range.

Still need to sort the temperature of the chemicals in that case.

 

[BMbikerider]

The JOBO I would think would be the better of the two. However I have had inconsistent results using my JOBO with B&W because the universal recommendation for the times with a JOBO is to reduce the time rotary development by 15%.** I have found that all films don't respond equally. Some would have been better with 10% reduction and some with a little bit more. What I have resorted to doing is to heat the JOBO water bath up to as close to 21 degrees as I can, then use the tempered water as a static water bath and just develop as normal, returning the tank to the water after the inversion(s).

I have found a JOBO CPE2 to be a thoroughly reliable piece of equipment. The present one I have had for around 21 years and the one before that for at least 15. The original one I am keeping for spare parts should I ever need them and was only taken out of use following an accident which damaged the water tank.

**Constant agitation when using high accutance developers such as Rodinal, will reduce the edge effect significantly! The best way to treat this developer and film combination is by intermittent agitation after the 1st 30 seconds constant, followed by 1 inversion every 30 seconds thereafter until the end of the sequence. Using the rotary method is fine, and infact it is probably better, to use rotary agitation for the stop bath, fix and rinse stages.

 

[klownshed]

However I have had inconsistent results using my JOBO with B&W because the universal recommendation for the times with a JOBO is to reduce the time rotary development by 15%.**

I found the same. What works for me though is to prewash for 5 minutes then develop for the normal time.. I know Ilford state that they don’t recommend a pre wash but I’ve never had uneven development with that method.

I always pre wash with the Jobo.

Before I got my Jobo I just used a big bowl of warm water to heat the chemicals, topping up with hot water as necessary to maintain temperature. This works well for B&W and the odd temperature discrepancy makes little difference, unlike for colour film.

The other option is to use a sous vide type heater to maintain a constant temperature. One company is selling one specifically for this purpose (I linked to it in another post but can’t remember it’s name).

If you have the time and won’t be doing other things whilst you’re heating the chemicals (it doesn’t take long to get chemicals to 20°C) you don’t need anything other than a supply of hot water and a bowl and some glass bottles for the chemicals.

The convenience of being able to temper the chemicals unattended is nice though. For that purpose I’d be happy with either the Jobo or the Nova (or indeed a sous vide type system).

 

[ic-racer]

A little off topic, but I was doing some Rodinal in Jobo by diluting the Rodinal into six one- liter bottles (since I don't do color, got to fill all those bottles with something ). Then run each bottle of dilute developer through the rotating tank, one at a time. The fill-drain time was also significant, which may also have contributed some stand-development effects to the very dilute solution.

 

[Jerevan]

Ic-racer,

your setup is really something to aspire to! How is it going with the Rodinal and Jobo combo? I know we have discussed a bit over at LFPF when you brought back an old thread to life.

The more I read and look, the more confused I get - the Jobo stuff is a jungle. I have two lines of thought going at the moment - either buy a used CPE2 (about 500 euros, without a lift) or go cheaper and buy a tempering unit (a cheap TBE would be nice but I've yet to find one south of 400 euros).

All in all, I think I may be just faffing around instead of doing the work ... processing the 50+ rolls stored in the closet.

EDIT: still trying to figure out if a tank on a rollerbase with a waterbath works - not getting any good search hits.

 

[peoplemerge]

I also do temperature control for C41 and E6 using the same technique as @Kraus1971. I do RA4 printing in trays at room temp. I also want a jobo, though not because I think I'll get better or more consistent results, but because I think it will free me up so I can walk away from the job and come back later.

 

[WilmarcoImaging]

Do you have no access to warm water at all? If you can bring into your darkroom a 4l container with warm water (25 or so deg C), a small insulated box (styrofoam cooler in the US) can be used as a tempering bath. The tank can be immersed in the warm bath during processing and it will stay warm enough for long enough. Sous vide and Jobo devices not strictly necessary.

 

[peoplemerge]

... with a standby $5 electric kettle for when the temperature drops too low.

 

[Jerevan]

I checked the room temperature and found it to be about 10-12 degrees C and there is apparently varm water available. In the meantime I happened to win a glorified bath tub (Jobo Temperierbox) and I might try this with a sous vide as a starting point.

Otherwise, I am trying to figure out what the differences between a CPE2 and CPA2 are.

 

[seall]

I checked the room temperature and found it to be about 10-12 degrees C and there is apparently varm water available. In the meantime I happened to win a glorified bath tub (Jobo Temperierbox) and I might try this with a sous vide as a starting point.

Otherwise, I am trying to figure out what the differences between a CPE2 and CPA2 are.

Hi, The CPE2 is for 4 processes whilst the CPA2 is for six so the CPA2 makes E6 a lot easier.

 

[Jerevan]

Thanks - great to know. I might get into E6 eventually.

 

[seall]

Spend a bit of time researching it, it is worth understanding what you want befor you commit to buying this type of machine.

You should check this:

http://www.jobo-usa.com/resources/faq/18-why-are-jobo-cpa2-cpp2-serial-numbers-important

I use a CPA2 for film from 35 to 5x4 along with the large cylinders for toning large prints because I do not like the tone chemicals sitting in trays in my small darkroom.

After looking for a processor for some time I got my CPA2 for something between £200 and £300.

Be aware that the cylinders are available 2nd hand at quite reasonable prices, although obtaing everything you need at bargain prices can take a bit of time. Make sure they are in good condition. When using a wetting chemical put your film into it after taking the film off the spirals and out of the cylinder - do not pour wetting agent into the cylinder with the spirals as it may give you problems putting the film onto the spirals before processing. Some of the machines come with a lift whcih may make the process less labour intensive but they are usually a bit more expensive. I manage without a lift and do not have any problems.

There is also a book "The Rotary Processor Manual" by John Tinsley, there is some handy tips in the book and it is available 2nd hand.

When using BW chemicals I do not bother filling the machine with water, I heat the chemicals to 20C and keep an eye on the room temp which I keep around 20C.

The CPA2 is a machine that I would not want to be without. and I consider it to be outstanding value for money when I consider it's range of functionality. There is also the CPP2 for you to look at but it very much depends on the spec you require if you want to invest in one.

At the moment I am looking for a used large Nova print processor as I like the way it keeps the chemicals but this is quite specific to one process whilst the CPA2 is a versitile system allowing a variety of processes.

Best of luck!

 

[Jerevan]

Eventually, I have now (finally!) gotten down to actually ordering a Jobo CPA2, after much deliberation. It was decently priced, but without a lift. Reportedly in good condition.

If it turns out to be working correctly, I might possibly source a lift - I wonder if the new ones would work on this machine?

But anyways, as long as it gets through my horrible backlog of film I am happy enough.

 

[mshchem]

Eventually, I have now (finally!) gotten down to actually ordering a Jobo CPA2, after much deliberation. It was decently priced, but without a lift. Reportedly in good condition.

If it turns out to be working correctly, I might possibly source a lift - I wonder if the new ones would work on this machine?

But anyways, as long as it gets through my horrible backlog of film I am happy enough.

I'm sure the new lifts would fit. 600 bucks!
If you can find a Duolab cog, the Jobo bottles will thread directly to the tank. Use a 600mm bottle, thread the tank onto the full bottle. Stand on end the solution will go in a swoosh. Faster than a lift.

 

[mshchem]

Here's a Duolab cog on a 1500 series tank. Using the truly bizarre motorized Jobo Color base. .

 

[Jerevan]

Cool contraption, @mshchem! I assume the Color base is just a motor with a cog, driving the drum? How does the duolab cog differ from a "normal" one?

Yes, the answer from the official source is that a new lift fits, but depending on serial number range it would need a different cog.

 

[mpirie]

I've never used the Nova (though i do have one of their print processors), but i would vote for the Jobo for film processing.

My CPA2 sits in the darkroom within my garage and the temps can drop to 5 or 6 degrees C during the winter.

If i'm planning to process film, i fire up the Jobo a couple hours before to allow the chems to heat up. With enough water in the bath i can make sure the tank is bathed in tempered water so the cold tank doesn't cause too much of a temperature drop.

If you're using a CPA2 without the lift, you'll need to make sure you have the magnetic couplers on the bottom of the tanks.

Mike

 

[mshchem]

Cool contraption, @mshchem! I assume the Color base is just a motor with a cog, driving the drum? How does the duolab cog differ from a "normal" one?

Yes, the answer from the official source is that a new lift fits, but depending on serial number range it would need a different cog.

The Duolab cog is a wide mouth cog that is threaded to accept the bottles. You have it right, motor with a drive cog. The base model comes with a hand crank. Not intended for film processing, very dorky contraption.

 

[Jerevan]

I tried to get more information on the serial number from the seller but it sounds odd: Type 4070; Nr AD 2249 - but that's only the type of machine, but no serial number range that I can find. I have to wait until it arrives.

 

[Jerevan]

I think the serial should be AR2249, and in that case it is an early, single bearing motor with no option to use the 3000 drums as far as I understand it.