Unsure of how much sharpness I can get out of film.

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2F/2F

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I'd start backward with your critique. Before comparing two things in terms of technical details, first name your criteria for judging the final results.

First of all, what will that final product be? Are you comparing both media for the purposes of making inkjet prints? Lightjet fiber prints? Online photos? What size prints do you want? Etc. Pick one, and don't compare until both have actually been made into that final product. For example, let's say you decide that you want to make 8x12 Lightjet fiber prints at a local lab. Well, make the prints, don't compare on a computer screen. Go through the entire process with each medium, then compare final results.

It must be assumed that you have potentially similar uses of each medium in order to make the comparison worth anything in the real world. For instance, if you want to use digital to shoot hand held wedding photos in mixed ambient and artificial lighting at low to medium ISOs, the comparison loses meaning if you compare those shots to black and white landscapes shot on a tripod with a 100 speed tabular-grained film. Similarly, if you want to use digital for low-light street photography at 6400 ISO, there simply is no film comparison, as the fastest film is ISO speed 1000. To make the comparison hold weight, you've got to shoot each medium in the same manner. Same ISO, both hand held or both on a tripod, same subject matter.

And you've got to make sure you are just as skilled in the exposure, adjustment, and printing of each medium. A lot of people coming from digital try film and think it stinks, when in reality, they just aren't very skilled technicians with film processes. Same with people going from film to digital. Someone can have 50 years experience in professional-quality film photography and printing, then get on a computer and think digital stinks just because they aren't very good at using it. (Though the learning curve for someone going from film to digital is much less steep than for someone going the other way IMHO.)

What I think you will realize if you approach it in this way is that each medium excels in different areas of use, and the playing field is rarely so level and controlled in real life shooting. Additionally, the two media have intangible differences in terms of things like "look," "feel," and "character" that cannot be boiled down to raw measurements. And there are also differences in the process itself, which is incredibly important in making any sort of product...at least to me. I often choose to shoot film simply because I don't want to monkey with pictures on a computer, but would prefer working in my darkroom.

In other words, I'd use both. Use each for what it is best at, or for how it suits your mood at the time.

P.S. I also feel obligated to repost that outstanding booby pic:

standard.jpg
 
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jeffreyg

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I realize the discussion is about sharpness, technique and equipment but IMO a compelling subject and strong composition will trump sharpness especially when the differences are slight. The size of the print is often related to how far from it the viewer is expected to be. Your SilverFast software has extensive controls that can be set prior to the scan. I have been under the impression that doing too much sharpening is not the best way to go. I use Delta 400 (120) and HP5 (4x5) both developed in either ID11 (D76) or PMK pyro and get excellent scans with my old Epson 4780 and SilverFast Studio as well as darkroom wet prints to 16x20. I use a tripod 95+% and tend to stop down the lens more often than wide open.

I agree with 2F/2F's advice for you. If sharpness is what you are most critical about learn to make the sharpest negative you can and don't worry about comparing one medium to another. Many of the world's greatest photographs are not as sharp as the examples shown.

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kbrede

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I agree with the comments that there is more to photography than sharpness. That's why I mentioned in the first post, "I know this post has all been about *sharpness* but I know there's more to photography. I'm just trying to learn this technical aspect ATM."

All mediums have their strength and weaknesses. I'm just trying to learn about this one particular aspect, at this time. This isn't a film vs digital thing, digital I have personal experience with, so I'm using it for comparison. I see a lack of sharpness, especially in B&W, with my film photography. Since I've only been at film for a little over a month, I know my skills are lacking, but I also didn't know what film was capable of in terms of resolution in 35mm. I've had some really good suggestions on how I can start evaluating film and steps on how to improve sharpness. Thanks for all your help. :smile:
 

Les Sarile

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Just to be sure, I do not claim that my examples are anywhere near what can be achieved in desktop scanned 35mm film as I have personally seen better. I have scanned almost 20,000 frames of various films with various scanners. I have also had 20" X 30" optical prints made from various films so I believe I have a good point of reference.

Closest I have to Tri-X is an example of TMAX400 developed in TMAX developer

standard.jpg
Link to full size version -> TMAX400
 

Les Sarile

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BTW, you can get something like the Carson MV820 - 5X loupe and 40X microscope, so you can visually verify if the data has been captured on the film. This will approximate a true 4000dpi scan.

medium800.jpg
 

Les Sarile

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Since I've only been at film for a little over a month, I know my skills are lacking, but I also didn't know what film was capable of in terms of resolution in 35mm.

I printed out the ISO 12233 Test Chart chart 4 high by 4 wide. Shot some of it using various lenses and digicams I have - Canon G10, Pentax K20D and Nikon D3100 which are coincidentally all >14MP, corroborated my results with DPREVIEW for those cameras so that I know the setup is correct. Then I shot the setup with my Pentax LX using the same manual focus lens as on my K20D, with Kodak Techpan @ ISO25 and processed it in Technidol. Scanned it on my Coolscan. I then shot the center are of it with my bellows setup - essentially a 4.5X magnification or >8000dpi, and this is what I got.

standard.jpg
Link to full res version -> K20D-Techpan-ISO12233 Reschart

BTW, you may - or may not, be surprised what digicam this resolution result is comparable too. Obviously much more then 14MP . . . :wink:

No doubt that when people represent what they think is the limits of 35mm film, it is simply the limits of what they are capable of extracting from 35mm film. This means that none of my own captures presented here may even be the limit of it either . . . :whistling:
 

Les Sarile

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FYI this is what my K20D+Pentax Autobellows+Slide Copier looks like. Had to mount the slide copier in reverse to maximize magnification. With a 28mm lens in reverse I can achieve much more magnification but a lot more distortion.

medium800.jpg



Maybe next is the microscope adapter . . . :smile:
 

Ihmemies

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Out of curiousity I tested how much I can "sharpen" a scan with Lightroom. Nikon Coolscan V + RVP50:

r222_k14_lr4_thumb.jpg


Larger: http://hakkarainen.kuvat.fi/temp/r222_k14_lr4.jpg

It was first frame in film strip so the left border is out of focus.. there's some scanner flare on bottom which is fixed now but those are beside the point :whistling:

Keep in mind that the image is produced with a 10-year-old cheap, low-quality consumer scanner. Modern scanners (Hasselblad, Plustek 120) should do a lot better, hopefully without any artificial sharpening too.

Edit: Kodachrome 64:

kr64_multiexposure6_lr4.jpg


Larger: http://hakkarainen.kuvat.fi/temp/kr64_multiexposure6_lr4.jpg

Edit2: can't stop now. More kr64:

kr64_r92_k08_lr4.jpg


Larger:http://hakkarainen.kuvat.fi/temp2/kr64_r92_k08_lr4.jpg

Sharpening seems to be a decent way to get more digital-looking scans!
 
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artobest

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Sharpening seems to be a decent way to get more digital-looking scans!

Looks like you're sharpening the noise as well as the edges there. You should start by making an edge mask, then sharpen on a duplicate layer (set to Luminosity) with the mask applied. If necessary, you can adjust the black point of the mask afterwards until you get the desired result.
 

Ihmemies

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When you start off with a sharp capture on good film and scan with a Coolscan, it doesn't need much help.

Maybe you have a better sample (scanner) than I have. My scans are noticeably soft at "100%" without any sharpening.

Looks like you're sharpening the noise as well as the edges there. You should start by making an edge mask, then sharpen on a duplicate layer (set to Luminosity) with the mask applied. If necessary, you can adjust the black point of the mask afterwards until you get the desired result.

With my poor vision I can't see noise/grain on my 30" display unless zooming to "100%" so I don't mind. If I wanted perfectly clean images I'd shoot medium format (I have an RZ67 but no scanner) or buy a D800 :smile:

In prints it matters even less for me, because pixel-peeping reasonably sized prints (like 20x30cm) is not very practical.
 
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artobest

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In prints it matters even less for me, because pixel-peeping reasonably sized prints (like 20x30cm) is not very practical.

Maybe, but the last thing you want to do when printing is output-sharpen already sharpened image noise.
 
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You need first class lenses and an excellent scanner. I don't want to talk any scanners bad, but the Nikon scanners set the benchmark for a long time.

I am shooting a lot with my Contax G2 and the ZEISS lenses, with Fuji Provia 100F (doesn't need exposure correction for night shots, very fine grain with RMS 8), scan the slides with a Coolscan 5000 or 9000, whatever is turned on first on that day.

Never had any problems. The resolution and sharpness compared to a Nikon D3x (not mine) is here

Scroll down to 'resolution & resolving power of film part II'

There are many more images in the Contax G2 article.

Scanning with the 9000 shows less grain.

Very often I have the files printed with a Lambda or LightJet at a size of 60x90 cm or 2x3 feet, sometimes even larger. With my own printer, a HP Photosmart Pro B9180 (8 inks, discontinued) I print them in my office at a size of 19x13 inch (A3+, 33 cm 48,3 cm) with fantastic results.

No, I don't have Lightroom or Photoshop, just VueScan and Photoline, the only alternative to Adobe products for 16/48 bit editing.

Scanning requires a bit experience, and it takes time. If you lack precision in the scan process, no software can iron out the errors.
 
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Thomas, thanks for posting. I really love the soft tonal gradients in both scans.
 
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