Uneven edge markings on hp5+ 120

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AgX

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Anyway, better hints as (there was a url link here which no longer exists) has just given, Harman cannot expect from their customers.
It is now up to them.
 

pentaxuser

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I recently just developed a batch of film (66 rolls). All the rolls are from my European trip taken last summer, the film was either bought just before (in Japan) or during the trip (mostly in Italy or Prague). All 120 film was shot on my Mamiya 6 (and a couple rolls with my Holga). Of those rolls recently developed, 26 were HP5+. Of those, at least half show this problem. I've noticed four possibilities:

1. The edge markings are even and do not touch the image area. (4219, 4222)
2. The edge markings are uneven in parts, but do not touch the edge of the image area, although for some it just touches the area. The uneven part is usually the batch code number, the "Ilford HP5 Plus" remains even. (4219, 4276, 4222)
3. The edge markings are uneven in parts, and sometimes just touch the edge of the image area, or slightly go over (again, usually the number). It only affects one or two images on the roll. (4238, 4134, 4219, 4276, 4222)
4. The edge markings are uneven, either whole or in part, and some of the markings (both number and text) go into the image area. Sometimes the entire text* is within the image area. (4219, 4256, 4276*)

As you can see, some batch numbers fall into more than one category, and by this I mean that over the entire roll it exhibits only these characteristics. I'm going to go through each roll and do a more thorough analysis and accounting, but this is what I've noticed so far.

Have you notified Ilford of your findings? AgX speaks of your hints to Ilford but these are only effective if someone from Ilford is keeping a watch on APUG for "things Ilford" I am not convinced this is the case

pentaxuser
 

Prof_Pixel

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@BrianShaw and everyone else who thinks this is a camera issue, look closely at this you will see the ilford printing is flush with the bottom on the left image and raised going into the image on the right negative. There is no way for this to happen in camera or during developing. This happened at ilford when the film markings were exposed on the film.

FKqNp0r.jpg


I have shot many, many rolls of film with this camera and many others, I know how the image should be on the film and that isn't an issue, yes it sits a little low on the film with this camera... that is not the issue at hand.

It looks like the top border is wider than the bottom border and that's why the printing is in the image area at the bottom. As someone pointed out earlier, the paper backing is wider than the film and in this case, the film may not be properly centered.

That may also explain the black 'stripe' along the top edge of the film.
 
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AgX

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But that would only be one part of the story: varying distances between image egde and film edge.

The varying distance between signature and film edge is something else and caused by manufacture.
 

AgX

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Depends on the amount of the reflected, diffused light.
 

Photo Engineer

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The edge markings are usually made to achieve Dmax with proper development, and this exposure is known. If that exposure is made with any gap, then there is diffusion of light and reflection of light such that the image becomes fuzzy. BTDT.

PE
 

canvassy

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Have you notified Ilford of your findings? AgX speaks of your hints to Ilford but these are only effective if someone from Ilford is keeping a watch on APUG for "things Ilford" I am not convinced this is the case

pentaxuser

I emailed Ilford at the same time that I made my post here. I included a link to this thread. I got a confirmation email that they received my message, but I haven't heard anything yet. It's only been a day and a half.
 

mooseontheloose

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The problem is not the width at the top and the bottom (although it may be contributing to it). The problem is the written text being uneven at the bottom of the film and affecting the image area:

Screen Shot 2016-03-10 at 07.04.22.png


These are examples of only one or two images on the roll being affected. The rest of the roll is fine because the text remains within the margins and not the image area.

Normal edge markings that do not affect the image:
Screen Shot 2016-03-10 at 07.12.56.png


FWIW, I've also just emailed Ilford about it too, mentioning this thread.
 
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MattKing

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Anyway, better hints as (there was a url link here which no longer exists) has just given, Harman cannot expect from their customers.
This tells me that Yoda was based on someone from Germany.:whistling:
 

AgX

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?????

I would love to join the laughing, but have no idea who or what Yoda is.
 
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MartinP

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The supposed joke is based on verb/subject order within a sentence structure containing primary and secondary phrases. This arrangement is different between latin based languages and old-germanic based languages. There was a character named Yoda in an old childrens' film who spoke 'english' rather like someone directly transliterating Swedish or Dutch.
 

pdeeh

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MartinP said:
There was a character named Yoda in an old childrens' film ...

oh heavens, you've really kicked a hornet's nest now ...
 

Harman Tech Service

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Hi all,

For info, we do recognise this a being a very occasional problem. The roll film signing registration on our 120 spoolers is a via a manual stencil arrangement (unlike the electronic programmable stenciling on the 135 line). Since these particular films were produced we have introduced a change to both the registration process for the stencils and reduced the font size of the text.
There is clearly also a good deal of variation between various cameras and the position and size of the visible frame area, hopefully the recent changes will now cope with all scenario's.

We will of course respond to the users email separately.

Neil
 

MattKing

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Kirks518

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I think I take offense to Star Wars being an 'old film'. But maybe I'm just officially old now....
 

canvassy

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I heard from Harman on Thursday, they were going to look into it and get back to me Monday (today).

And as promised, I had an email from Harman in my inbox early this morning, and I'd like to share the general outline here.

My film code 4276 and OP's film code 4274 were both from the same batch. Previously the stencil for the signing/edge markings were made off site, but now they've been doing them in-house. Very occasionally there are issues but they've taken steps to eliminate them:

- reduced font size slightly, so if there's any drift it doesn't go in the image area
- ensuring the stencils are fixed to the absolute edge of the films

This batch was before these changes, and it sounds like the issue has been resolved now.

My personal thoughts are that this was a temporary hiccup and is resolved now. I've always read on APUG about Ilford/Harman's great customer service and attention to the film community, and I'm happy to say that it's continued post-buyout here.

EDIT: bad spelling
 
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mooseontheloose

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I got the same email from them and am very satisfied with their explanation.
 

AgX

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Hi all,

For info, we do recognise this a being a very occasional problem. The roll film signing registration on our 120 spoolers is a via a manual stencil arrangement (unlike the electronic programmable stenciling on the 135 line). Since these particular films were produced we have introduced a change to both the registration process for the stencils and reduced the font size of the text.
There is clearly also a good deal of variation between various cameras and the position and size of the visible frame area, hopefully the recent changes will now cope with all scenario's.

We will of course respond to the users email separately.

Neil


I rather read this as: "We knew, but did not bother."

Well, to a certain extent that may be reasoned if the signing and the position of the gate at the camera are within tolerances.
But as seen here customers were unsatisfied.
 
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I heard from Harmon on Thursday,(...)
And as promised, I had an email from Harmon in my inbox early this morning (...)

I've always read on APUG about Ilford/Harmon's great customer service and attention to the film community, and I'm happy to say that it's continued post-buyout here.
Thank you for the report.
It is the same as Neil above last Thursday.
You can also read that the name on the side of that post is "HarmAn Tech Services.
I wonder why Americans can't spell Harman correctly.
FYI, it is the name of the founder of Ilford (Britannia Works) in 1879.
 
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I rather read this as: "We knew, but did not not bother."

Well, to a certain extent that may be reasoned if the signing and the position of the gate at the camera are within tolerances.
But as seen here customers were unsatisfied.

I don't see where you are reading this.
I read it as: "We know and we did something to address it".
 

AgX

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They did let go those films, several batches, knowingly to the market.
 
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Yes, that might be the case.
But, I don't believe they saw it initially as being a problem as they thought it was within tolerance limits.
 
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