Uneven edge markings on hp5+ 120

BrianShaw · Mar 2, 2016

MattKing said:
....

That being said, it appears to me that your camera has a very large film gate. I don't think any of my medium format cameras leave such narrow areas outside the image. It may be that the movement of the edge printing is within standard tolerances, but the camera requires more narrow than standard tolerances.

According to the Bessa III manual, the film gate is 56x56mm (6x6) and 56x69mm (6x7). Hasselblad 6x6 film gate, per the manual, is 54x54mm. Not only is the Bessa film gate bigger, but it isn't exactly evenly aligned, top and bottom, with the film.

Sometimes it takes just a few minutes of basic engineering research to answer a question.

Photo Engineer · Mar 2, 2016

Edge markings should be even down a roll, but these vary in distance from the edge. This is a manufacturing fault during exposure of the edge marking. Either the film is wobbling or the machinery is out of adjustment. The film manufacturer should be notified.

PE

bvy · Mar 2, 2016

Dammit, Simon.

AgX · Mar 2, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Edge markings should be even down a roll, but these vary in distance from the edge. This is a manufacturing fault during exposure of the edge marking. Either the film is wobbling or the machinery is out of adjustment. The film manufacturer should be notified.

PE

If I see right, the fault is only at one side. This would exclude plain wobbling of film of exposure unit.
I can imagine some cause though. But without knowing in detail their signing machine I leave it to Harman to sort that out...

It is an interesting fault in that as far I remember it was not hinted at before.

Sirius Glass · Mar 2, 2016

bvy said:
Dammit, Simon.

Simon left the room a while ago.

pentaxuser · Mar 2, 2016

BrianShaw said:
According to the Bessa III manual, the film gate is 56x56mm (6x6) and 56x69mm (6x7). Hasselblad 6x6 film gate, per the manual, is 54x54mm. Not only is the Bessa film gate bigger, but it isn't exactly evenly aligned, top and bottom, with the film.

Sometimes it takes just a few minutes of basic engineering research to answer a question.

The bottom gap seems fairly consistent over both films but the edge marking vary quite a bit. In one case on the first frame of the second film HP5 is wholly within the film area but in other frames it is wholly outside, if only just. Would a camera gate explain this and if the Bessa camera gate is at fault then by now you'd expect to hear of many complaints surely from Bessa owners?

If this is wholly a Bessa problem then it would seem that all Bessa owners should steer clear of HP5+ film

pentaxuser

BrianShaw · Mar 2, 2016

pentaxuser said:
The bottom gap seems fairly consistent over both films but the edge marking vary quite a bit. In one case on the first frame of the second film HP5 is wholly within the film area but in other frames it is wholly outside, if only just. Would a camera gate explain this and if the Bessa camera gate is at fault then by now you'd expect to hear of many complaints surely from Bessa owners?

If this is wholly a Bessa problem then it would seem that all Bessa owners should steer clear of HP5+ film

pentaxuser

Well, I never said it was wholly a Bessa problem. I said that the generous film gate dimensions of the Bessa and loose tolerance (or printing error) of the film interacted to create a problem that might not be seen in cameras with slightly smaller film gate dimensions. Yes, the film gate aperture is consistent - but it is bigger than other cameras and may not be positioned exactly centered in the film width. The film gate isn't moving, but the position of the edge marking did on every other marking. In other words, several contributory factors led to the edge marking intrude on the image area. I cannot explain the experience or attitude of any other Bessa owners experience.

John Koehrer · Mar 2, 2016

pentaxuser said:
Thanks for that. I can only presume that everyone here except me knew that these were non existent problems. Might have been worth a mention by the OP but then again if I am in a minority of one maybe not. There's no place on an analogue forum for a digital ignoramus as they say

pentaxuser

Hey! That's just hurtful! Thinking you're alone.

ColColt · Mar 2, 2016

I guess I've been lucky. I haven't shot all that many rolls with HP-5(120), maybe 5-7 but never saw that on my negatives from the Pentax 6x7.

37th Exposure · Mar 2, 2016

I have a Bessa 3 667 and loved it so much I later bought the identical Fuji GF 670. Both cameras have that same issue as the OP with Ilford film ( mine do anyway). As that tiny fraction of a mm edge mark gets easily lost in the negative carrier I never thought twice about it. I hardly notice on the contact sheets if I notice at all. So no harm done. I also notice this on Foma film. My Fuji 645 also has this edge mark issue with these brands but never ruined an image. Now that I think about it, the few rolls of Fuji film I've run through these three cameras (all three are made by Fuji including the Bessa) the images are perfectly centered with the edge marks. Go figure.

I was just looking at some of Diane Arbus' square format work in some books. Looks like she had even more of an edge mark issue. She did print full frame including some of the blank film around it so you could see the intrusions clearly. I would consider these merged into the actual image more than mine or the OP's. I suppose if I start looking I'll find this phenomenon in a lot of medium format films by photographers of all stripes.

I still think it's all just normal variations in film brands and camera mechanics. But of course factory defect is possible. As PE is actually in the industry I now really have doubts about my stock of Ilford HP5+ which I just replenished!

georgegrosu · Mar 3, 2016

For me most serious problem seem irregular stripes more open that walks on film.
I see in post 20, a malfunction occurs emulsion.
Areas that is missing from emulsion.
Place appears more open.

George

rwreich · Mar 3, 2016

georgegrosu said:
For me most serious problem seem irregular stripes more open that walks on film.
I see in post 20, a malfunction occurs emulsion.
Areas that is missing from emulsion.
Place appears more open.

George

That's not a malfunction, George. That's the reflection of the overhead light source in the room in which the negs were viewed. It's just glare.

canvassy · Mar 8, 2016

I have this on one of my rolls of HP5+ that I just developed last night. Normally the edge marking is right on the edge, and this roll has it uneven just like the OP. Some of mine are completely within the image frame. I shot mine in a Yashicamat LM. I just emailed Ilford about it, just in case no one else has yet.

pentaxuser · Mar 8, 2016

canvassy said:
I have this on one of my rolls of HP5+ that I just developed last night. Normally the edge marking is right on the edge, and this roll has it uneven just like the OP. Some of mine are completely within the image frame. I shot mine in a Yashicamat LM. I just emailed Ilford about it, just in case no one else has yet.

Good. Ilford certainly needs to know. I wonder how many other cameras are affected?It is beginning to suggest it is wholly a film problem and not a camera gate one. People who are contemplating buying HP5+ will be hesitating until we get an answer. I know I'd certainly be hesitating

pentaxuser

AgX · Mar 8, 2016

pentaxuser said:
I wonder how many other cameras are affected?It is beginning to suggest it is wholly a film problem and not a camera gate one.

It was qualified as a manufacturer's issue from the start.

(At least based on the small scale photographs posted here.)

BrianShaw · Mar 8, 2016

pentaxuser said:
... I wonder how many other cameras are affected?It is beginning to suggest it is wholly a film problem and not a camera gate one. ...

Cant answer that question, but would not create image incursion on Hasselblad.

Sirius Glass · Mar 8, 2016

BrianShaw said:
Cant answer that question, but would not create image incursion on Hasselblad.

+1

canvassy · Mar 8, 2016

My edge markings say 4276 while the OP's are 4274, perhaps that's a batch number? I'm not sure. 8 of my 12 frames have some sort of intrusion from the edge markings inside the image. 2 of those 8 are almost entirely inside the image. Normally the edge markings are nice and neat and flush right with the edge and it's never been a problem before.

I got a confirmation that Ilford received my email, so I will report back if I hear anything from them.

Tim Stapp · Mar 8, 2016

I'm watching this with interest. I have just looked at some HP5 Plus negatives and noted the uneven edge markings that I hadn't noticed before, probably because they don't intrude into the image on my P67.

Number on the edge markings is: 4243

DWThomas · Mar 8, 2016

I've no idea what the mechanical gizmos that roll and imprint film actually look like. Since various film types are likely processed in batches through the same machine(s) I can picture the HP5 imprint module didn't get a thumbscrew tightened at one end. Or there are multiple modules and one was left loose, or had a piece of tape left under the mounting surface as a bunch of rolls were run through.

Having recently stocked up some HP5, I'll be nervously watching this. Maybe it's just "the Internet" but it seems between this and the number print-thru on Tmax, there is a proliferation of stuff to worry about.

mooseontheloose · Mar 9, 2016

I recently just developed a batch of film (66 rolls). All the rolls are from my European trip taken last summer, the film was either bought just before (in Japan) or during the trip (mostly in Italy or Prague). All 120 film was shot on my Mamiya 6 (and a couple rolls with my Holga). Of those rolls recently developed, 26 were HP5+. Of those, at least half show this problem. I've noticed four possibilities:

1. The edge markings are even and do not touch the image area. (4219, 4222)
2. The edge markings are uneven in parts, but do not touch the edge of the image area, although for some it just touches the area. The uneven part is usually the batch code number, the "Ilford HP5 Plus" remains even. (4219, 4276, 4222)
3. The edge markings are uneven in parts, and sometimes just touch the edge of the image area, or slightly go over (again, usually the number). It only affects one or two images on the roll. (4238, 4134, 4219, 4276, 4222)
4. The edge markings are uneven, either whole or in part, and some of the markings (both number and text) go into the image area. Sometimes the entire text* is within the image area. (4219, 4256, 4276*)

As you can see, some batch numbers fall into more than one category, and by this I mean that over the entire roll it exhibits only these characteristics. I'm going to go through each roll and do a more thorough analysis and accounting, but this is what I've noticed so far.

georgegrosu · Mar 9, 2016

I apologize for the confusion with reflections of light.
Thanks for the explanation rwreich.
In cine there are standards and rules for Image produced by camera apertures
and projected image area for 35 mm films and dimension and position of window projection.
Probably and photo must be such rules.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/21121448@N06/25268861029/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/21121448@N06/25009706753/in/dateposted-public/
https://www.flickr.com/photos/21121448@N06/25636433715/in/dateposted-public/
If you put images is good to be film scans have edges (right).
We need to see the correct size of the film.
When the film is wavy can not be properly assessed.

George

mooseontheloose · Mar 9, 2016

Okay, here are the results from my 26 rolls of film:

A random sampling of edge marking from various films. Some show slight overlap into the image, others more so, and some none at all. The colour variations are the differences between developing in D-76 and in Finol:

Does anyone know why the numbers sometimes "glow"? See roll 4276, 4th from the bottom. This doesn't happen often, but it does appear on a number of rolls. Not sure what causes it.

Anon Ymous · Mar 9, 2016

mooseontheloose said:
...
Does anyone know why the numbers sometimes "glow"? See roll 4276, 4th from the bottom. This doesn't happen often, but it does appear on a number of rolls. Not sure what causes it.

Perhaps the thing that prints these numbers - shines light on the film was farther away than normal and light diffused to some extent.

AgX · Mar 9, 2016

Or overexposure, causing a halo.

Uneven edge markings on hp5+ 120

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