Uneven development in hangars?

[BetterSense]

I have some Kodak stainless steel hangars and kodak hard rubber tanks. I agitate by doing the recommended remove+tilt about once per minute, plus I pick the sheets out every 15-30s to inspect them (I have IR goggles). Most of the time I have no issue but on the occasional sheet of film that has smooth edge areas that needs printed at high contrast, I can see uneven development around the edges. The problem is worse with xray film and less bad with pictorial film. I would like to know what I can do to modify my agitation or processing to eliminate this. Would a presoak help? More dilute developer for a longer development time (my times are frequently ~5min)?

 

[polyglot]

What does the pattern of uneven development look like? Could it perhaps be caused by developer running off the sheets while you're doing the removal during agitation?

 

[Ian Grant]

You need to make sure you are agitating sufficiently, your technique of inspection is the likely cause as you'll get aerial oxidation and the oxidised developer can causing streaking.

Ian

 

[removed account4]

inspecting your film every 15/30seconds, processing your film for less than 5 minutes
& only agitating to 1 side ( not both ) sounds like your problem.
i used to hanger develop, and from what i remember ( tmax, dk 50, sprint, xtol )
all my developing times were over 5 mins, more like 7 mins or more ...
out to the left 45º then out to the right 45º every 30 seconds from what i remember ...

i wouldn't process all your film in 1 run, but 1 sheet ... full development then inspect it
if it needs less or more development do that for your next single sheet, until you get your development time.
then whatever amount you process at once. ( and inspect it after your "time" is up )

is your chemistry warm, and that is why you are processing for such a short time ?


john

 

[phritz phantom]

developing in hangars is considered impractical by most people, because of the size and amount of chemicals needed.

 

[Neal]

Dear BetterSense,

More agitation is needed. When I used hangers I agitated every 30 seconds.

Good luck,

Neal Wydra

 

[BetterSense]

developing in hangars is considered impractical by most people, because of the size and amount of chemicals needed.

My tanks are 1.75L, so using HC110 or Rodinal at 50:1 costs me only about 1 dollar for one-shot chemistry. If I use D23 it doesn't make any difference how big the tank is. I switched to tanks because I kept getting scratches with xray film which is very delicate.

You need to make sure you are agitating sufficiently, your technique of inspection is the likely cause as you'll get aerial oxidation and the oxidised developer can causing streaking.

Maybe I should stop inspecting so much, and only do it every couple minutes. I will post a picture of the uneven development later.

is your chemistry warm, and that is why you are processing for such a short time ?

No, but Arista EDU.Ultra develops very quickly, and xray film develops even quicker.

 

[Ian Grant]

Bettersense, hangars are what aircraft are stored in Hangers are what you use, phritz was pulling your leg slightly

Foma films are rather quirky in their unusually short dev times compared to all other manufacturers, you can't really dilute the D23 and replenish it, so can you drop the temperature a bit to give longer times ?

Ian

 

[BetterSense]

Maybe I will try 1:100 hc110. When I develop pushed HP5 for like 15 minutes, I don't seem to have problems. It does seem to be related to total development time.

 

[Robert Hall]

Agreed. Anything less than 6 minutes especially with little agitation is just asking for uneven development.

 

[Dave Swinnard]

I quit using hangers (with "lift and tilt") as I could never get away from the overdeveloped edges. Likely these were caused by the increase agitation (turbulence through and around the edges). It was this issue that drove me finally to rotary processing.

I did a study at university ('~1976) using various methods of developing 4x5 glass plates (astronomical emulsions) ranging from tank/hanger, single plates in various size trays (different wave patterns), and swabbing (fine cotton ball swished over the emulsion constantly during development); but not rotary. A number of developers were also tried. These plates were then scanned edge to edge using a scanning microdensitometer. The results showed evenness of development across the surface of the film. The only method that gave measurably even results was the swabbing technique. All the other methods (tanks/trays) proved to have measurable density increases near the edges. Not good if one is trying to make quantitative measurements from a plate, or even if trying to make a fine print from a nice landscape negative (or portrait, or...).

Swabbing was fine for a single plate but proved to be too time consuming for my general "picture taking". (I went to rotary, Unicolor drums first then to Jobo when I could finally afford it.)

 

[BetterSense]

I will conduct some tests with xray film and high contrast printing. Maybe I will try stand development.

When you do the brush development, do you leave the plate/film emulsion-up in a tray, and constantly brush the surface?

 

[CBG]

The way you wrote, it sounds like you are inspecting all along. Inspection only makes sense near the end of the process. Your picking them out every 30 seconds to inspect adds agitation to your process. I'm guessing you may be adding unneeded agitation.

On an unrelated note, I'd be wary of short development times. HC110 is a good choice for one shot use since - among a number of factors - it can be used at very high dilutions and times pretty much as long as you want to make them.

Many people agitate more vigorously than needed. I read a while ago that many folks get better negs when they simply agitate less and/or more gently. That inspired me to re-examine how much, and how vigorously I agitate.

I'm guessing that for you a substantially higher dilution with longer times, gentler agitation, and inspection only near the end of the process, will combine to lessen issues at the edges of the negatives. Does the way you shoot and print preclude adding a little bit of unused margin round the extreme edge of your negs?

I'm gradually easing up on the "violence" of my agitation. The jury is still out on whether I am getting better negatives, and I am making imcremental changes very slowly, so not to wreck anything if I am wrong, but the process of being more deliberate about the factors involved in the quality of my negs is giving me better negs than I ever has decades ago when I was shooting professionally.

 

[Curt]

Just like the 1960's typing classes, "The right touch is the light touch", it applies to hangers and tanks as well. I do the lift and tilt to the left and right. Slowly and purposely up and to the left then down, then up and to the right then down. I presoak, then I develop in the 10 to 20 minute range depending on developer and dilution. Hangers have been in use for a very long time and if they didn't work they would be in the scrap heap. In the end you will have to decide if you can adjust to the system or move on to another way to do it. I find that in trays films like Adox and Efke get scratched easily and I have not had any issue with Ilford and Kodak films. It's also a pain in the neck and shoulders to shuffle multiple sheets in a tray. There is also the tube system, several, and that may be a way to go. In tanks I can do a modified semi-stand development. If you need to leave the room or turn the lights on etc. you can put a cover over the tank with the hangers in it.

Good luck,
Curt

 

[BetterSense]

Here is a scan of a contact print. I cranked the contrast up so you can see the uneven bands along the top edges. It's more clear on the print.

 

[df cardwell]

Lots of folks used hangers in the old days, and got fine results; I still do. The trick is to use an agitation method suited to tanks. Here's what Kodak suggests for TMY2- it is typical of what works:

Large-Tank Processing (1/2- to 3 1/2-gallon tank)— Rolls and Sheets

"Agitate continuously for the first 15 to 30 seconds by
raising and lowering the basket, rack, or spindle 1/2 inch.
Do not agitate the basket, rack, or spindle for the remainder
of the first minute. Then agitate once per minute by lifting
the basket, rack, or spindle out of the developer, tilting it
approximately 30 degrees, draining it for 5 to 10 seconds,
and reimmersing it. Alternate the direction of tilting the
basket, rack, or spindle."

Tanks want agitation only at minute intervals,
and tilting the hangers as Kodak suggests reduces the chance for sure on the borders.

Lifting the hangers out "every 15-30s to inspect them" is agitating them ! Besides over-agitating the film, you are creating the surge of agitation at the edge of the film.

Unlike using reels in small tanks, here you have a little film exposed to a lot of developer. You don't NEED lots of agitation; 5 to 10 seconds is plenty. Lift, tilt, replace. Easy. Check the Kodak data, use the large Tank times. You don't need to agitate left and right each cycle: tilt to the left one time, to the right the next.

Try to develop between 8 to 12 minutes, so diluting the developer is a good idea. If you don't want to dilute the developer, then pre-soak in water for 3 minutes.

It is a very good technique, but it wants finesse and consistency.

 

[BetterSense]

Then agitate once per minute by lifting
the basket, rack, or spindle out of the developer, tilting it
approximately 30 degrees, draining it for 5 to 10 seconds,

I suppose I should have RTFM. When I do it, I always do it both ways, and I tilt more than 30 degrees, and I have the hangers out of the developer for at most 3 seconds. I wouldn't have imagined holding it out of the developer for as long as 10 seconds. At any rate I have got a lot of good suggestions in this thread and I'm sure with a bit of modification to my agitation regimen I will be able to get good, even development.

 

[CBG]

I suppose I should have RTFM. ...

RTFM???

 

[BetterSense]

"Read the manual". I apologize, sometimes I forget this is not Slashdot.org.

 

[df cardwell]

...... I'm sure with a bit of modification to my agitation regimen I will be able to get good, even development.

Working this out on your own is hard. Getting as close as you are to perfection is an achievement.

The old 'crafty' things are pretty easy to learn when you are at the elbow of somebody who can do it. Patience is the biggest thing you need when you are working with LF. Unloading holders, loading hangers, developing the sheets exactly the same as I did yesterday, and last week, and 20 years ago, has become a pleasurable thing and the time passes quickly.

It was different when I was a kid.

I think patience is also handy with table saws and chainsaws.

 

[DaveOttawa]

...Hangers have been in use for a very long time...

Correct - some of mine are marked with a patent date of 1912!

 

[MattKing]

Based on the thread title, I thought this was a question about developing film in an airport building.

Sorry, couldn't resist .

Matt

 

[removed account4]

Lots of folks used hangers in the old days, and got fine results; I still do. The trick is to use an agitation method suited to tanks. Here's what Kodak suggests for TMY2- it is typical of what works:

Large-Tank Processing (1/2- to 3 1/2-gallon tank)— Rolls and Sheets

"Agitate continuously for the first 15 to 30 seconds by
raising and lowering the basket, rack, or spindle 1/2 inch.
Do not agitate the basket, rack, or spindle for the remainder
of the first minute. Then agitate once per minute by lifting
the basket, rack, or spindle out of the developer, tilting it
approximately 30 degrees, draining it for 5 to 10 seconds,
and reimmersing it. Alternate the direction of tilting the
basket, rack, or spindle."

Tanks want agitation only at minute intervals,
and tilting the hangers as Kodak suggests reduces the chance for sure on the borders.

Lifting the hangers out "every 15-30s to inspect them" is agitating them ! Besides over-agitating the film, you are creating the surge of agitation at the edge of the film.

Unlike using reels in small tanks, here you have a little film exposed to a lot of developer. You don't NEED lots of agitation; 5 to 10 seconds is plenty. Lift, tilt, replace. Easy. Check the Kodak data, use the large Tank times. You don't need to agitate left and right each cycle: tilt to the left one time, to the right the next.

Try to develop between 8 to 12 minutes, so diluting the developer is a good idea. If you don't want to dilute the developer, then pre-soak in water for 3 minutes.

It is a very good technique, but it wants finesse and consistency.

1 cycle / minute!
i thought that was what it was
then i googled " processing film in hangers" ( since its been 12+ years )
and stv simmon's book popped up and said 1 cycle / 30seconds ...
should have gone with my "gut"

... thanks for reminding me !

- john

 

[MikeSeb]

You guys are almost making me nostalgic for my pre-Jobo days, with all this talk of Kodak hard-rubber tanks and sheet-film racks. If I had a real darkroom in which to process film I'd go back to the hangers and tanks in an instant; less futz than the jobo for sheet film.

Alas, I have only a changing bag, so I gotta do daylight processing.

 

[CBG]

Based on the thread title, I thought this was a question about developing film in an airport building ...

Like this:
http://seesaw.typepad.com/blog/2009/11/the-largest-photograph-in-the-world-1904.html