Uneven development driving me crazy...

[Jordan.K]

perhaps you need a more dilute developer so you can have longer development times. It is strange, because I've always felt smooth skies were more easily obtainable with roll film. Agitation is key, but you seem to be doing that part properly. How fast are you getting your developer into the tank? That is pretty important as well.

 

[Mats_A]

How is your thermometer? Do you have right temperature?

r

Mats

 

[snapshot2000]

A long time ago, I developed my 35mm film on sticks lifted in an out of a 4x5 tank in the dark and never saw this problem. Last year, I did a huge batch of film in various size stainless steel tanks and some of the rolls with clear sky showed a similar pattern as yours.

At first I thought it was my agitation, and then solution volume for the number of rolls in the tank, but after reading everyone's posts, I'm pretty sure it was because I filled the tanks to the top. I remember thinking at the time that I should be hearing more movement of the solution inside the tanks and wondering if I had filled them too high. I believe that, and solution volume per roll were the culprits for me.

It will be several weeks before I process again, so I look forward to hearing how your next batch turns out.

---

actually, I'm thinking backwards... the light areas in the print mean high density in the negatives, so I would think it's over agitation, as others have suggested here.

 

[Ronald Moravec]

The developer has to move so use only enough to cover the reel.

4 inversions with a twist in 10 sec repeat every 60 sec is sufficient.

Do not presoak. No film manufacturer tells you to do so except EFKE. Ilford specifically says not to.

Rotational twisting replenishes developer on the edges, not in center. Result is dense edges on the neg.

Over used and insufficient agitation in fix will leave a dense streak down the center. Examine space between frames to see if clear. Refix if not.
I agitate the heck in fix. There is no downside. Inspect before wash.

I never reuse film fix. Finish it off on test prints.

Too little agitation, specially in first 30 sec, will give all kinds of trouble. Use manufactures instructions.

 

[Vania]

Thanks Ronald. What you described used to be my procedure for more than 10 years and is still valid for anything smaller than 6x6 (even 6x4,5 which was my main format) but now that I switched to 6x6 I find this negative size much less forgiving.
So 3 complete inversion (down & up) in 5 sec every 30 sec have improved things somehow but not completely. I really have to try 5-6 per 5 sec. And maybe only one reel in a two reels tank as someone suggested. Will post some more after the week-end.
V.

 

[Usagi]

I have had these problems also, mostly after I moved to the current place. I guess that something in the water caused coeffects that were visible in the film as airbubless etc.

Pyrocat-HD begun to work normally after I begun to put couple drpos of photoflo or equal. The real reason was perhaps that water here is hareder than places were I had live before.
Problem solved.

Not.

Then I found very similar uneveness like in this thread has posted. Begun to use distillied water but still. It get to long from me to understand that the reason was my initial agtitation of 1min. I did it way too gently, everytime just as before. It was easy to reproducle whole development.

After later I realized the importanty of first minute agitaiton and that it's not need to be identical every time. It's purpose is to get developer everywhere on the film fastly and keep it moving fast so that there's no sopots where developer doesnt change.

The later, "normal" agitations during development may be repeatable. It just keeps the things constant.
But the start.. Very opposite to that.

Two things that changed all: Pyrocat + phoflo and vigirous agitation during first sequence.

I have even video showing my slow normal agitation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5An2Yx83WA4


The effect of agitation during fixing phase have to find out, as I have agitated during fixing very randomly.

 

[bblhed]

Maybe my idea to be sure I would have enough chemical to process my film could be useful to you.

Being frugal (read "paranoid cheep skate") I got some plastic bottles, filled my tank with water until it was just over the top of the reel and then poured the water into the plastic bottle and marked the level, and the chemical I planed to use in that bottle on it, DEV, FIX etc. This is also handy because I can use the small bottles during processing, and they take up a lot less counter space. Bonus, unlike beakers bottles have caps that don't leak so I can have portable chemistry as well.

 

[George Collier]

One more experience on this: I have had a lot of the edge "surge" effects exhibited in your initial scans (mine with 6x6 negs also). A couple of things that worked for me - given that agitation is the issue - (I don't buy the fixing thing - unless the edges of your negs are yellow or milky vs having extra silver density.)
I measured the amount of liquid it takes to cover the reel (380cc in my case) and use just over that, to allow for chem movement.
I pre-soak for 2 minutes (I use a semi stand regimen and this is recommended - I also use Delta 400 a lot, and if I don't pre-soak, I have a lot of foam in the tank at the end of development, which I've never had before, but do with D400 & Rodinal).
When using Rodinal 1:100, with 120 film, I give it a good 2 minutes agitation before the first 3 minute "stand". Then I agitate for 30 sec every 4 minutes. What I have found important about the agitation, is that it must be thorough (a good change of developer needs to take place at the center of each neg) and gentle, so as not to have too much at the edges, hence the 30 sec agitation (15 inverted swirly motions).
This works for me, and oh, yeah, I have found that HC110 is the most forgiving in this aspect. I use it whenever semi stand is not needed, and never get edge surge, using 5 inversions every minute.

 

[vpwphoto]

Your five min presoak might be part of the trouble. I have developed some 10,000 rolls of film and have not used a pre-soak.
I agitate... first thirty seconds, then five seconds every thirty.... or I use rotary processor.
Also do not bother with distilled water. I find it caused more problems that in solves.

 

[ic-racer]

Kodak say 8 rolls of 120 per gallon of D-76 at 1:1

from Kodak B&W Darkroom Dataguide, 1988, page 62

That's 16oz per 120 roll

Page 7 here lists the capacity:

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j78/j78.pdf

"STARTS" to get exhausted. Which is to say ony 4 rolls per gallon before you need to start to compensate for exhaustion with increased time,and potentially with uneven development.

Again, I'd start with enough developer to process the film without any exhaustion until this problem is solved. Then strech out the developer capacity from there if desired.

 

[polyglot]

No, it says 16 rolls per gallon (4 rolls per litre!) undiluted, 8 rolls diluted. That's 250mL of stock per roll or 500mL at 1+1, which is what everyone uses for (plastic) inversion tanks. And since you're agitating during development, the minor exhaustion of the developer during a single development is irrelevant and will not cause uneven development. If you get local exhaustion, you get compensation and that's about all.

If this is freshly-mixed D-76, exhaustion is not the problem. If there was exhaustion e.g. due to insufficient stock being present in a small tank, there would merely be an overall lack of density and poor highlight density in particular. No bands on the edge.

 

[bvy]

Also do not bother with distilled water. I find it caused more problems that in solves.

How could that be? Just curious...

 

[dfoo]

Personally I think this "over agitation" is a myth, and will not cause effects like the poster is seeing. If you read the Kodak documentation they say to vigorously agitate every 30s during development. Rotary systems also continually agitate during development and I've never seen anything like that using my rotary developer. I suspect the issue may be under fixing. I had this issue at one point and that was the issue...

 

[ic-racer]

No, it says 16 rolls per gallon (4 rolls per litre!)
.

Duhh... thanks I was reading it as the parentheses relating to the little tick marks.

 

[Vania]

Problem solved... another one arise...

Hello all,

First let me thank you all for your inputs (right or wrong), they really cheered me up and helped me remain coherent and methodical about all this (as opposed to feeling doomed and making the same mistakes again and again).

So definitely an under-agitation problem in two ways :

1st. Not enough inversions during the first 30s/1min. And maybe after that but I need to test for this and know if, with proper agitation at first, I can slow down afterwards to gain back some control over contrast and grain. As well as see if I can use semi-stand (3min intervals) agitation again which I find very rewarding.

2nd, and probably most important, I didn't apply enough force during my inversions. They needed to be more brisk. Kind of like trying to empty a yoghurt pot (well maybe not as much but you get the idea). This is probably more true with stainless steel tanks than with the Jobo ones which offers a better flow of the chemistry (hence the fact that my problem was more obvious with the ss tanks).

Well now that I get a perfectly even development a new problem arose :
It happened before and when I mentioned it I thought it was due to my testing of extremely slow agitation. Unfortunately it was not and it happened again with my new proper and energetic method on my last test roll.
As you can see on the picture there is a thick white line going across the image showing over development. I darkened it and added contrast to make it more obvious. It is continuous on all frames as if a drop of developer acting more intensely crossed the whole film. But the direction of the line in the developing tank is parallel to the ground and the lid.

It only happened twice and only in my recent agitation testings. Since then, I just finished developing one of my week end film in PMK and there is nothing of the sort.
What the two developments had in common was
1. The use of HC-110 freshly diluted from syrup. Can it be possible that this is due to one drop of syrup than didn't dissolve well ? Is sounds like a stretch especially considering the direction of the line (parallel to the ground). Does HC110 needs time after dilution in order to dissolve properly (I've just started using this developer so I'm not familiar with it) ? Or maybe a good shake ? I only stir it.
2. I didn't use my usual demineralized water but just plain tap water for one and plain tap water filtered with a Brita for the other.
Appart from that I'm clueless... :confused:

Can that artifact still be due to some improper agitation ?

Again thank you all for your help, and I hope someone has an idea about this one...

Vania

 

[dfoo]

Looks to me like you didn't have enough dev in the tank.

 

[Vania]

Do you mean stock (syrup) or working solution ? I do make sure to use to required 6ml of syrup. As for working solution one of the development had just enough to cover the reel + just a little more. But the other one had a generous amount of working solution.

 

[dfoo]

What I meant is that you didn't have enough liquid in the tank to cover the reel. I've had a similar set of lines before and the problem was exactly that... the top of the reel was sticking out of the developer

 

[Vania]

Ah! I think what you're seeing is my lousy scanner artifact, the black lines on the right side of the image, the problem is actually the white line in the center of the picture .

 

[Роберт]

You can take directly from the HC-110 syrup (with the right type syringe) but you have to dissolve the concentrate completely. HC-110 is a pretty strong working developer so from the beginning you have to agitate continuous for at least 30 seconds. For roll film then every 15 seconds for at least 2x.

The Brita filter will be OK. It can make very good photographic water and solve some problems related to Iron and Calcium in your tap water.

I can not recommend a pre-soak unless a manufacturer specify it. Well Ilford doesn't and Fuji also not.

For a Jobo 1520 tank the minimum is 485ml to cover just the spiral but 500ml is more practical and safe.

With these guidelines it should be possible to have an error free development.

 

[Vaughn]

Can you see anything on the surface of the film - I am thinking of drying marks here.

 

[Vania]

Not a drying mark. The artifact was clearly visible on the film as soon as I took it out of the the tank.

 

[George Collier]

The white curvy line is a strange one to me. If you've enhanced contrast, then I agree with the suggestion to check the surface for drying marks, although they would normally be in sharp focus. See if it repeats.
HC110 should dissolve easily and quickly from the syrup. A good 20 - 30 second stir should be enough.
Doesn't this last posted image (of the chimneys) still have some surge on the right side? Could be the sun is just out of the image area, but it looks like surge to me.

 

[Vania]

Definitely not a drying mark, no question about it. Not the syrup either as it just happend with PMK also but only on 3 frames (out of 12) and for the first time. The only thing I did differently was using a pre-soak, I usually don't do it with PMK but I guess was in automatic mode and mindlessly poured water in tank. It seems strange to me that a pre-soak could do that as it is suppose to help getting even developments.
On the other hand I got a clean even development with HC-110 and the only thing I did differently to the ones that gave me the white stipe was using a 2% acetic acid stop bath instead of plain water. Development time was 12 min for 1:66 dilution. Long enough so an acid stop bath was not needed, so there again it is quite surprising...
Does it make sense to anyone that either a pre-soak or water stop bath (I used water with PMK also) could result in that over-exposed white stripe ?
Thanks.
V.

 

[Saganich]

OOPS, I got that backwards: the clips clear from the edges to the center when in the bottom of a beaker. Sorry about that.

Interesting observation, Chris. There also might more movement of chemicals in the middle, with the reel causing less movement along the edges of the film-- just a guess because it does not seem to affect the development in the same way (another guess -- perhaps fixer "exhausts" locally faster than developer).

All I know is that I fill the tank the same way with the same amounts, my development agitation remained the same -- as far as I can tell the only thing I changed is the amount of agitation of the tank when fixing -- and that cured my problem. If it cures somebody else's problem that is great.

I had not heard of your recommended fixer agitation until now -- I have always heard of using the same pattern as with developer.