Understanding EI???

Ray Rogers · Jan 17, 2010

CPorter said:
Ray Rogers said:

I knew that line would get me in trouble!/QUOTE]

There are many who have that same "line" of thought about the ZS and as a result will always fail to see the big picture.

But like Ralph so eloquently put it, the ZS was never meant to eliminate the those controls------his statement should be an "eye opener" to anyone who thinks abouit the ZS in that way, IMO.

Chuck

Click to expand...

What is the "big picture" as you see it?
To me, it is that the zone system is not about the destination, it's about the drive. Is this viewpoint wrong?

RalphLambrecht · Jan 17, 2010

Ray Rogers said:
CPorter said:

What is the "big picture" as you see it?
To me, it is that the zone system is not about the destination, it's about the drive. Is this viewpoint wrong?

Click to expand...

Ray

Is visualization not all about the final print, and consequently, destination?

Ray Rogers · Jan 17, 2010

I never said or meant to imply the zone system was designed or supposed to eliminate post negative production controls.

I did say it would be impressive if it could.

Ray Rogers · Jan 17, 2010

RalphLambrecht said:
Ray Rogers said:

Ray

Is visualization not all about the final print, and consequently, destination?

Click to expand...

No, I think not.

Imagine yourself giving a workshop at a University in Kyoto...
That is visualization.

The destination is the lecture, the demonstrations, the work produced while there.

jmal · Jan 17, 2010

Anyone here take any pictures?

Ian Grant · Jan 17, 2010

It's dark this time of night, and cold - so not just now thanks, tomorrow though

Ian

Keith Tapscott. · Jan 17, 2010

Ian Grant said:
It's dark this time of night, and cold - so not just now thanks, tomorrow though

Ian

You could always try some Night Photography.
I shot a roll of film around Princetown, Dartmoor at night last month, but I still haven`t developed the film yet.

sanking · Jan 17, 2010

jmal said:
Anyone here take any pictures?

Not right now. It is raining pretty hard outside right now where I live. Plus I am getting emotionally geared up to watch Mr. Romo and Mr. Favre et al have at it this afternoon on the gridiron.

Sandy King

2F/2F · Jan 17, 2010

RalphLambrecht said:
The three areas of print quality are:

1. Brilliant Highlights
2. High-Contrast Midtones
3. Deep but Detailed Shadows

Good to know.

Ray Rogers · Jan 17, 2010

jmal said:
Anyone here take any pictures?

It's dark and cold here too and with snow on the ground.
Right now it's time for a candle light bath with strawberries and brandy filled chocolate... not an everyday thing here but nice once in a while. I know I am no master of the zone system, much less anywhere nearly as prolific as the heavy weights that interact here... nevertheless it is very nice to be here. And as has been mentioned several times before, this has indeed been a very interesting thread.

My New Year's resolution?
Be more productive and take more pictures!
Thanks jmal for reminding me!

Chuck_P · Jan 17, 2010

Ray Rogers said:
CPorter said:

What is the "big picture" as you see it?
To me, it is that the zone system is not about the destination, it's about the drive. Is this viewpoint wrong?

Click to expand...

Sorry for the ambiguity. I personally would not put it in those terms, your viewpoint does not fit why I want to expose and develop with a high degree of efficiency------I want to do so because it's all about the final product, which is the print. That IS the destination, IMO.

Kirk Keyes · Jan 17, 2010

Drive or Destination?

For the viewer of the artwork, it can only be the destination. So often for the artist, it's all about the drive as they are often not able to separate the drive from the destination. And somehow, they think I need to make the drive along with them, as opposed to only seeing the destination.

I'm not sure if that is a good thing or not...

It works in literature, but not so often in graphic arts.

RalphLambrecht · Jan 17, 2010

CPorter said:
Ray Rogers said:

Sorry for the ambiguity. I personally would not put it in those terms, your viewpoint does not fit why I want to expose and develop with a high degree of efficiency------I want to do so because it's all about the final product, which is the print. That IS the destination, IMO.

Click to expand...

Without a doubt!

Ray Rogers · Jan 17, 2010

Kirk Keyes said:
Drive or Destination?
It works in literature, but not so often in graphic arts.

Yes that is my point of view as well, Kirk. Well put.

eddym · Jan 18, 2010

RalphLambrecht said:
More often than not you want a negative where everything from highlights to shadows does quite fit into the paper density range, and you use dodging and burning to pull them them back in, because that strengthens local contrast.

Ralph, didn't you mean to say, "does not quite fit..."?

RalphLambrecht · Jan 18, 2010

eddym said:
Ralph, didn't you mean to say, "does not quite fit..."?

Correct. I'm glad someone is paying attention! Thanks.

eddym · Jan 18, 2010

RalphLambrecht said:
Correct. I'm glad someone is paying attention! Thanks.

I didn't have much to contribute to this thread, but I enjoyed reading every word of it. My hat is off to the major participants, including yourself.

Ray Rogers · Jan 18, 2010

RalphLambrecht said:
Ray

This statement still comes from the wrong angle, because it implies that eliminating dodging and burning is something to aim for. It isn't!
Let's not ask the Zone System to do what is wasn't designed to do.

The negative is the score, and the print is the performance.
Ansel Adams

First, I want to point out and ask "How?" your response to my post number 228... appears as post number 220? This sort of "time travel" represents a problem as it may change the record of the flow of thought and our exhange of ideas, not to mention simply confuse people. What could have caused this?

As of yet, I have not looked at the links posted by Kieth, nor at the on-line book mentioned by someone (I am sorry, I forgot who) so I feel I am behind a bit and want to review those links before responding in depth, if that is even required.

But since I used the quote from your post #220 I feel should respond in some fashion.

I know, and admire the statements/quotes you have made.
But, I am not trying to describe the ZS, nor am I misinterpreting it's purpose.

Rather, I am looking at the negative as a template upon which greater control over the final image may be impressed, and from which, a greater achievment of the ultimate image goals (without resorting to post negative control) is possible.

I think the experts in this are probably great studio photographers who are masters of lighting. I use dodging and burning in myself, as well as other techniques, but a master lighting technician can do a lot of the "tone placement" etc., at the moment the negative is exposed. A straight print of such a negative can be very pleasing. While I would not want to limit further manipulation, there is no reason why the elimination of the need for dodging and burning should be avoided.

Exposing the negative to act as a score allows many interpretations in it's performance.

The negative can also be a set of chromosomes, and the print, it's life form.
Ray Rogers

DWThomas · Jan 18, 2010

eddym said:
I didn't have much to contribute to this thread, but I enjoyed reading every word of it. My hat is off to the major participants, including yourself.

I certainly agree with eddym. I have wondered if after asking an innocent question, the original poster may now be locked into some eyes glazed over catatonic state in front of his computer screen. But there are lots of good references and tidbits here to gnaw on.

Thanks,

DaveT

Stephen Benskin · Jan 18, 2010

Ray Rogers said:
The negative can also be a set of chromosomes, and the print, it's life form.
Ray Rogers

Thank you for not making a music based ZS analogy. Really! Thank-you!

Chuck_P · Jan 18, 2010

Ray Rogers said:
I never said or meant to imply the zone system was designed or supposed to eliminate post negative production controls.

Come on Ray, if you didn't mean to imply it, then ok that's cool, then what does your statement below mean then?

"The whole sensitometric/zone system thing sort of falls down when one considers that with all the previsualizaton and zone placement going on, dodgeing and burning in still has to be resorted too..."

.....still has to be resorted too..............Sounds to me you think that if one uses dodging and burning during printing, after having gone through the process of visualization, exposing, and developing the negative, then the ZS sort of "falls down", presumably on its face, because it did not yield a flawless negative.

No attitude here, just trying to figure out what your talking about.

Chuck

Stephen Benskin · Jan 19, 2010

It's no secret, the world isn't necessarily going to give you the tones you want in the places you want them in the scene. That's why it's called "art" and not "copy". ZS is one path toward that destination, but there are many paths all leading to the same destination.

RalphLambrecht · Jan 19, 2010

Ray Rogers said:
First, I want to point out and ask "How?" your response to my post number 228... appears as post number 220? This sort of "time travel" represents a problem as it may change the record of the flow of thought and our exhange of ideas, not to mention simply confuse people. What could have caused this?

...

I am not trying to describe the ZS, nor am I misinterpreting it's purpose....

Ray

I have no idea. Post #220 and #228 seem to be in the right order for me. I see no time travel.

In post #215 you said:

The whole sensitometric/zone system thing sort of falls down when one considers that with all the previsualizaton and zone placement going on, dodgeing and burning in still has to be resorted too... not to mention the fact that non-zoners are also making excellent prints!

I took from this statement that expected the Zone Systems to eliminate dodging and burning (with all the zone placement, dodging and burning still has to be resorted to). This would be common but false expectation, but I apologize if I have misunderstood what you meant.

RalphLambrecht · Jan 19, 2010

CPorter said:
Come on Ray, if you didn't mean to imply it, then ok that's cool, then what does your statement below mean then?

"The whole sensitometric/zone system thing sort of falls down when one considers that with all the previsualizaton and zone placement going on, dodgeing and burning in still has to be resorted too..."

.....still has to be resorted too..............Sounds to me you think that if one uses dodging and burning during printing, after having gone through the process of visualization, exposing, and developing the negative, then the ZS sort of "falls down", presumably on its face, because it did not yield a flawless negative.

No attitude here, just trying to figure out what your talking about.

Chuck

I did not see this before I wrote my previous note, but it seems I was not the only one who took Ray's statement as the common and false expectation for the Zone System to eliminate dodging and burning. Nevertheless, he clarified that he didn't, so, the choice of words in post #215 may have been unfortunate.

RalphLambrecht · Jan 19, 2010

Stephen Benskin said:
It's no secret, the world isn't necessarily going to give you the tones you want in the places you want them in the scene. That's why it's called "art" and not "copy". ZS is one path toward that destination, but there are many paths all leading to the same destination.

Steve

The combination of Zone System and dodging & burning gets me pretty close to the original visualization of the print. I use the Zone System to set shadow and highlight points, and then use a variety of print manipulations to alter the other tonal values. This way, I can control the entire print and create the emphasis I like and where I like it. To me, the Zone System is not one path of many, it is one tool in a set of many. I use it together with others (including hybrid printing) to get the print I want it. It's not an either/or choice to me. I like to make use of all reasonable tools. Others may have a different approach, and that's great.

Understanding EI???

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