Tungsten film in daylight with thoriated lenses?

[Lucius]

I got myself 100ft of Vision3 500T -- this will be my first experience with tungsten film, and I'd appreciate advice on how to shoot it in daylight. More specifically, I'd like to check this idea I had: could a yellowed radioactive lens such as the zebra Pancolar or the 7-element Takumar work as a replacement for the 85 filter? And in general, how important is using a filter, given that I'm scanning the negatives anyway? Thank you!

 

[koraks]

could a yellowed radioactive lens such as the zebra Pancolar or the 7-element Takumar work as a replacement for the 85 filter?

No, the yellowing is too weak to mimic a true tungsten-balance filter. I also suspect the 'filter' absorption curve of the yellowing doesn't really match the proper filter.

how important is using a filter, given that I'm scanning the negatives anyway?

Depends on who you ask. I'd suggest just giving it a go and seeing what happens. If the results are adequate to your needs, I wouldn't worry about it.

Out of curiosity - why not get some 250D for shooting under daylight conditions? There seems to be plenty of the stuff around these days.

 

[Lucius]

No, the yellowing is too weak to mimic a true tungsten-balance filter. I also suspect the 'filter' absorption curve of the yellowing doesn't really match the proper filter.

Depends on who you ask. I'd suggest just giving it a go and seeing what happens. If the results are adequate to your needs, I wouldn't worry about it.

Of course, I will experiment with it, I was just wondering if there is any prior practical knowledge on the issues. I thought using the Pancolar (whose yellowing is rather radical, though not quite the same hue and not as strong as the filter) might be a neat trick.

Out of curiosity - why not get some 250D for shooting under daylight conditions? There seems to be plenty of the stuff around these days.

Just sheer meanness It was a much better deal than I'd seen on fresh 250D in months (I got some Eterna 250D too, but it's expired).

 

[koraks]

Gotcha! Well, looking forward to hearing about your experiences! And perhaps someone may still come along with some more concrete information on the yellowed glass vs. tungsten filter.

 

[Lucius]

Gotcha! Well, looking forward to hearing about your experiences! And perhaps someone may still come along with some more concrete information on the yellowed glass vs. tungsten filter.

Thanks! I'll report once I have results, though given my rather sluggish workflow (scanning being the weak point), it might take a while...

 

[koraks]

scanning being the weak point

Oh, don't mention it. It's probably my least favorite part of the entire process. It's in fact one of the main reasons I usually do darkroom prints only.

 

[Lucius]

Oh, don't mention it. It's probably my least favorite part of the entire process. It's in fact one of the main reasons I usually do darkroom prints only.

I wish I could afford that (space- and time-wise)! I had an enlarger as a kid, and there are few things in the world more magical than seeing in red light a photograph being developed...

 

[MattKing]

If you can, buy or borrow an 85 filter, to permit you to do a comparison.
Are you processing the film in ECN-2 chemicals, or are you (cross)-processing the film in C-41 chemicals?

 

[BMbikerider]

Thanks! I'll report once I have results, though given my rather sluggish workflow (scanning being the weak point), it might take a while...

I have a Minolta 28mmF2.8 MC with the yellowing thorium element and I can say it has a mild effect with B&W film rendering clouds more obvious than without. I checked it against a 28mm F3.5 MC and there seems to be about 1/2 to 3/4 stop difference by the built in meter on an XM.
What I can say it is one of the sharpest 28mm lenses I have have ever used.

 

[Lucius]

If you can, buy or borrow an 85 filter, to permit you to do a comparison.

Yep, I need to get one; I somehow have an 80, 81 and 82, but not an 85...

Are you processing the film in ECN-2 chemicals, or are you (cross)-processing the film in C-41 chemicals?

I send my films to a lab, but I think they are using proper ECN-2 chemicals. Does this make much of a difference?

 

[Lucius]

I have a Minolta 28mmF2.8 MC with the yellowing thorium element and I can say it has a mild effect with B&W film rendering clouds more obvious than without. I checked it against a 28mm F3.5 MC and there seems to be about 1/2 to 3/4 stop difference by the built in meter on an XM.
What I can say it is one of the sharpest 28mm lenses I have have ever used.

Yes, shooting B/W is one obvious situation where yellowing shouldn't be a problem and can actually be advantageous. Would be nice if it worked with tungsten film as well!

 

[MattKing]

I send my films to a lab, but I think they are using proper ECN-2 chemicals. Does this make much of a difference?

Processing in C-41 will mean colour crossover.
Apparently you can correct for that digitally, but that will add additional complexity.

 

[_T_]

I don't know if this interests you but you can reduce or sometimes even eliminate the yellowing of thorium elements, depending on how bad it is, by exposing them to uv light.

 

[Lucius]

I don't know if this interests you but you can reduce or sometimes even eliminate the yellowing of thorium elements, depending on how bad it is, by exposing them to uv light.

Yes, I know. I did this with some of my lenses, but it doesn't always work well (the Pancolar is known to be a particularly bad case), and I left a couple untreated on purpose.

 

[cmacd123]

way back in the past, about 4 versions of eastman colour ago, I found that not using the #85 made for less latitude as the blue would be slightly over exposed. YMMV

 

[koraks]

I send my films to a lab, but I think they are using proper ECN-2 chemicals. Does this make much of a difference

A few labs these days offer ECN2 processing. Most labs will just process C41 whatever 35mm color film you send them. Yes, it makes a difference. https://tinker.koraks.nl/photography/balancing-act-a-brief-look-at-ecn2-vs-c41-colors/

 

[mshchem]

I would put it in the trunk of 72 Chevy, preferably 4 door, in mint green and drive to Salt Lake City, doesn't matter from whence you come from as long as it's in July. Too late for this year, just leave it in the can sitting on top of your air fryer until then.

In the mean time you can see if the health claims of the 1890s are true. Radioactive elements (as in the elements in a nice Planar etc) are supposed to revitalize all manner of things. I've been sleeping with a couple of screw mount Super Takumars for some time now.

My wife sleeps on the King size bed in the master bedroom, I'm sleeping on a lumpy queen in the guest room.

She says she's never felt better.

 

[lamerko]

You can "clean" radioactive lenses - just expose them to direct light. If the yellowing is more serious - you can direct an LED lamp for a week.
You can't use the yellowing to correct the color balance - it's uneven, strongest in the center. This will also reduce your exposure, which can mess up the camera's metering - sometimes you can lose a whole stop of light.
Regarding the 85(b) filter - you can get a cheap gelatin one at first - they come in several sizes. You simply hold it in front of the lens just before shooting, so you can test on lenses with different threads without having to buy several different round filters.

 

[Lucius]

way back in the past, about 4 versions of eastman colour ago, I found that not using the #85 made for less latitude as the blue would be slightly over exposed. YMMV

Thanks! Another reason to get an 85 filter...

 

[Lucius]

A few labs these days offer ECN2 processing. Most labs will just process C41 whatever 35mm color film you send them. Yes, it makes a difference. https://tinker.koraks.nl/photography/balancing-act-a-brief-look-at-ecn2-vs-c41-colors/

Thanks, that's a most instructive (and engaging) read!

Just checked -- my lab's website says they're using ECN-2 chemistry. Though their prices have gone up quite a bit recently, so I'll be trying out a different one, but they too seem to follow the proper process.

 

[Lucius]

I would put it in the trunk of 72 Chevy, preferably 4 door, in mint green and drive to Salt Lake City, doesn't matter from whence you come from as long as it's in July. Too late for this year, just leave it in the can sitting on top of your air fryer until then.

In the mean time you can see if the health claims of the 1890s are true. Radioactive elements (as in the elements in a nice Planar etc) are supposed to revitalize all manner of things. I've been sleeping with a couple of screw mount Super Takumars for some time now.

My wife sleeps on the King size bed in the master bedroom, I'm sleeping on a lumpy queen in the guest room.

She says she's never felt better.

Even if I had a Chevy, it'd be a quit feat getting it over across the pond! ;-)

 

[Lucius]

You can "clean" radioactive lenses - just expose them to direct light. If the yellowing is more serious - you can direct an LED lamp for a week.

I have cured some of my radioactive lenses, or at least tried, though the Pancolar is notorious for its resistance (it gets better, but apparently never quite clear, even after months of exposure to UV).

You can't use the yellowing to correct the color balance - it's uneven, strongest in the center. This will also reduce your exposure, which can mess up the camera's metering - sometimes you can lose a whole stop of light.

Is this something you know from practical experience, about the unevenness? I've shot a few rolls with an untreated Takumar, and noticed no variation in colour/light density across the frame, though admittedly the yellowing was fairly moderate. Anyway, this shouldn't matter for TTL metering, no more than a filter would.

Regarding the 85(b) filter - you can get a cheap gelatin one at first - they come in several sizes. You simply hold it in front of the lens just before shooting, so you can test on lenses with different threads without having to buy several different round filters.

Yes, it looks like I might need an 85 filter after all...

 

[lamerko]

Is this something you know from practical experience, about the unevenness? I've shot a few rolls with untreated Takumar, and noticed no variation in colour/light density across the frame, though admittedly the yellowing was fairly moderate. Anyway, this should matter for TTL metering, no more than a filter would.

A few years ago I had a yellowed lens - I tried it with a mirrorless digital camera on a white wall via an adapter. The pigmentation towards the center was pronounced.

 

[Lucius]

A few years ago I had a yellowed lens - I tried it with a mirrorless digital camera on a white wall via an adapter. The pigmentation towards the center was pronounced.

That's interesting! Do you by any chance remember what lens it was, how much yellowing it had, and at what aperture the effect was more pronounced?

 

[Lucius]

Actually, I do seem to have a couple of orange filters: one is YA2, the other is a B.D.B. uncoded filter, somewhat lighter than the first one. Might either work instead of an 85?

UPD: Ok, Google says probably not...