trying to reduce grain(photo-chemistry question)

[RalphLambrecht]

I really like the sharpness I get from Rodinal and conventional emulsions but sometimes the grain gets to be a bit much. Would adding sodium sulfite to the working solution reduce grain?

 

[PeterB]

I really like the sharpness I get from Rodinal and conventional emulsions but sometimes the grain gets to be a bit much. Would adding sodium sulfite to the working solution reduce grain?

Yes it will ! See a 12 y.o. post here https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/rodinal-and-sodium-sulfite.6804/ and one here http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=582

Other ideas:

1. Reduce dilution
2. Minimal agitation (stand) during development.
3. Use a lower ISO film
4. Develop at 18degC

 

[Ian Grant]

Switch to a film like Tmax100 fantastic results in Rodinal exceptionally fine grain. I used it at 3 to 100 for normal contrast.

Ian

 

[JBrunner]

Hi Ralph. So nice to see you. Hope you are doing well.

FWIW when I was liking Rodinal but not liking the grain various things led me down the road to using HC-110 with a one shot dilution ala Rodinal. I was pretty happy with it, and some others liked it too. It gives what I think is a nicely balanced result. Of course your mileage may vary, but from what you have written it may be worth trying as well. I wrote an article on it some time ago.

The article is here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/hc110-made-simple.220/

Loves,

J

 

[Bill Burk]

Would you lose sharpness as you reduced the grain?
Would this make Rodinal results turn out the same as D-76 1:1?

I would be looking at this from the opposite viewpoint as most others.. I like the results I get with D-76 1:1 and have no motivation to use anything else.

So if I were to temporarily run out D-76 (not really likely but a possible scenario), or if I were in an experimental mood... I could try R09 with sodium sulfite

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Hi Ralph. So nice to see you. Hope you are doing well.

FWIW when I was liking Rodinal but not liking the grain various things led me down the road to using HC-110 with a one shot dilution ala Rodinal. I was pretty happy with it, and some others liked it too. It gives what I think is a nicely balanced result. Of course your mileage may vary, but from what you have written it may be worth trying as well. I wrote an article on it some time ago.

The article is here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/resources/hc110-made-simple.220/

Loves,

J

good info but, since I'm doing this for the Agfa/Bayer Photoclub darkroom, jumping to Kodak products will go over like a lead balloon. Next, I 'll try to dilute Rodinal in a 6% sodium sulfite solution and see where that takes us.

 

[Sirius Glass]

Using XTOL or better replenished XTOL will help you accomplish your desires.

 

[juan]

Gainer recommended using sodium ascorbate rather than sulfite.
https://www.photrio.com/forum/posts/584477/

 

[John Wiegerink]

I remember finding an article on the web where a fellow photographer ran a test using Rodinal at manufacture recommended dilutions and Rodinal with pickling or canning salt added. He clearly proved to me there was an advantage, grain wise, shadow wise and sharpness wise. If I can find it I will link it. Gadget Gainer (God I miss that guy) talked about adding Borax to Rodinal also. JohnW

 

[John Wiegerink]

Here is the same guy, but I found it on YOUTUBE instead. Here is the link:

 

[removed account4]

Gainer recommended using sodium ascorbate rather than sulfite.
https://www.photrio.com/forum/posts/584477/

yes he did !
( he also used to mix xtol and rodinal as well )

 

[ruilourosa]

Rodinal +SS+Sodium Ascorbate+VitaC+Borax+Sodium Cloride+Kodalk they all change grain for the smaller fuzzier and less rounder...

A silver solvent can be added in small amounts, like SS, to increase fine grain effect, Rodinal tonality will change, grain structure will change and speed possibly, (maybe up, a bit)...


test and tell!

 

[iandvaag]

Would you lose sharpness as you reduced the grain?
Would this make Rodinal results turn out the same as D-76 1:1?

I would be looking at this from the opposite viewpoint as most others.. I like the results I get with D-76 1:1 and have no motivation to use anything else.

This is precisely what I was thinking. If you add sulfite, I think you'll lose the sharpness that you like about Rodinal.

I'm another perfectly content user of D76/ID-11. There's a reason it's been *the* standard for such a long time. If you want sharper, dilute 1+3; if you want finer grain, go for stock. Diluting to 1+1 is a great balance.

 

[CMoore]

This is precisely what I was thinking. If you add sulfite, I think you'll lose the sharpness that you like about Rodinal.

I'm another perfectly content user of D76/ID-11. There's a reason it's been *the* standard for such a long time. If you want sharper, dilute 1+3; if you want finer grain, go for stock. Diluting to 1+1 is a great balance.

Not asking for a guarantee.....just curious about your experience.
I mixed my ID-11 (one gallon) on Oct, 1, 2017. I am shooting enough 35mm to make it last (just under or over) just about a 6 Month time frame, if i use it Straight/Stock.
If i go 1:1, it obviously doubles the time.
Have you kept your stock solution for 10-11-12 months with no problems.?
Thank You

 

[Alan Johnson]

good info but, since I'm doing this for the Agfa/Bayer Photoclub darkroom, jumping to Kodak products will go over like a lead balloon. Next, I 'll try to dilute Rodinal in a 6% sodium sulfite solution and see where that takes us.

Yes, that seems to be what was recommended in the BJP article quoted with times in post 3 below and suggested in post 2 above:
http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=582

 

[iandvaag]

Not asking for a guarantee.....just curious about your experience.

I think the longest I've left D-76 was maybe 8 months. This was stock solution in a fully filled glass bottle. The images came out just fine, but I didn't run a step wedge and check the contrast out my densitometer. Some members here have reported even longer keeping up to 12 months and even beyond IIRC. I strongly suggest that you do a clip test prior to entrusting a roll with valuable images. Know that the activity of the developer can change as it oxidizes, so just because a clipped leader darkens in the developer doesn't mean that your normal developing times are going to yield the contrast that you normally expect. No guarantees... I will say that the results of D76 1+1 and stock are not dramatically different. The film emulsion is a larger determining factor in the "look" of the final images.

I typically mix my own D-76/ID-11 (same formula), so I make up the amount that I think I can use in about 6 months. I believe there is a 1 litre packet available from both Kodak and Ilford, so that could be an option if the 1 gallon/5 litres packet is too much.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Rodinal +SS+Sodium Ascorbate+VitaC+Borax+Sodium Cloride+Kodalk they all change grain for the smaller fuzzier and less rounder...

A silver solvent can be added in small amounts, like SS, to increase fine grain effect, Rodinal tonality will change, grain structure will change and speed possibly, (maybe up, a bit)...


test and tell!

I did the test with a metal and SS solution; the grain was smaller but sharpness did not suffer and midtown contrast went up, giving the appearance of more sharpness where it counts.It's my go-to solution now(Rodinal plus my booster)!

 

[trendland]

I really like the sharpness I get from Rodinal and conventional emulsions but sometimes the grain gets to be a bit much. Would adding sodium sulfite to the working solution reduce grain?

In general you have some parameters with film wich are depending to each other (sure you'll know this).
In summary : Speed, size of grain, sharpness, tonals/contrast avaibility.
In your example we may have a look on size of grain and sharpness and contrast.
Sharpness you probably like (therefore the use of Rodinal) is relative with higher contrast and grainy look.
[a negative with low contrast may have a good resolution - but from visual inspection you allways notice : " It is not as sharp as expected "]
Because to higher contrast will never give more resolution but it allways give a look of sharper image.
The same is with rodinal edge sharpness - you will never have more details in negatives (because there is no additional information/resolution caused from edge effects - BUT IT LOOKS LIKE).
So sharpness is very relative - from my point.
Don't be disapointed from following statement but your approach makes no real sense. From my point it is a nice experiment - but it is a little complicate in regard to possible results.
So if you use Rodinal and in addition you are intended to smaler the size of grain you allways will have a lost of sharpness.
(The relative sharpness - you probably want to have with rodinal).
The most effective alternate aproach will be : 1) reduce the speed (lower speed with other films or lower E.I. with the film you use.
2) to reduce the developing time of rodinal would have the same result (possible with better characteristics) than to reformulate Rodinal in the way you will intend.
Nevertheless your aproach of reformulation looks real smart - but (from my point) you will waste time and energy (there are ways to rome - with less energy).
Some other recomandations here have the direction to use other films and other developing ? I would state : Your decision is with rodinal - so follow your way. But don't try to find better ways if the same result seams to be possible much much easyer.
with regards

 

[trendland]

I did the test with a metal and SS solution; the grain was smaller but sharpness did not suffer and midtown contrast went up, giving the appearance of more sharpness where it counts.It's my go-to solution now(Rodinal plus my booster)!

Ok Ralph I see - your reformulation was succsessfull. But it approved my explanations from above.
You notice smaler grain with your negatives - fine! Caused from your 6% sodium sulfite solution (booster) I understand.
But in difference of your conclusion ("the sharpness did not suffer") I have some doubts.
Regarding (just in comparison) the developing with alternate microdol x homebrew formulations. There you allways have smaler grain size - but in additional you have a visual noticable lost of contrast (same is with perceptol by the way).
The lost of a full stop we may just forget here. AND it is looking not as sharp (microdol type metol developers).
Same is with your aproach - if you may compare this : You actual must have a lost of sharpness (and grain is smaler sized) but your compensation is from higher contrast with midt - tones!
Think about .....
with regards

PS : So we've come round in a circle ?

 

[jim appleyard]

It may have been discussed above in other links, but here's another article: https://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Rodinal/rodinal.html

 

[M Carter]

Yes it will ! See a 12 y.o. post here https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/rodinal-and-sodium-sulfite.6804/ and one here http://www.film-and-darkroom-user.org.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=582

Other ideas:

1. Reduce dilution
2. Minimal agitation (stand) during development.
3. Use a lower ISO film
4. Develop at 18degC

I've done a stupid amount of testing with Rodinal. I've found reasonable temp changes (couple degrees either way) have no effect on grain. What does is dilution. 1+25 is much grainer than 1+50; 1+25 also drops some shadow detail and makes mids go deeper - it's a very nice look for portraits though, eyes, brows, lashes seem to "pop" more - adding a little fill light, half stop or so, can compensate for the lower mids darkening.

Also found that after dialing in times for 1+50 and 1+25, any dilution in between can be used, and the time change is linear - whatever percent of dilution you lose, add that percent of time, based on those endpoint times.

That said, I pretty much stick with 1+50 and Acros. at ISO 50-80.

 

[Kawaiithulhu]

While you're at it, I recently ran across this doc on grain structure: http://web.archive.org/web/20051017...hotosite/technical/Filmbasics/filmbasics.html

 

[Patrick Robert James]

I've been experimenting with Rodinal+Sulfite lately. My impression so far is slightly smaller grain and an increase in film speed. I haven't noticed much if any loss in sharpness. I haven't printed any of the negs yet so i haven't come to any conclusions. The scans (4000 dpi) look pretty good though.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I've been experimenting with Rodinal+Sulfite lately. My impression so far is slightly smaller grain and an increase in film speed. I haven't noticed much if any loss in sharpness. I haven't printed any of the negs yet so i haven't come to any conclusions. The scans (4000 dpi) look pretty good though.

same experience here.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

While you're at it, I recently ran across this doc on grain structure: http://web.archive.org/web/20051017...hotosite/technical/Filmbasics/filmbasics.html

very interesting info; thanks for posting.