Trying to Recreate Vietnam War B/W

Mr Flibble · Jan 8, 2021

Paul Howell said:
The Army used Combat Graphics left over from WWII and Korea which used 70mm roll film.

The Combat Graphic was a 4x5" camera. It saw only limited service towards the end of WW2, mainly with the US Navy and USMC and it was succeeded with a military version of the Pacemaker Graphic in 1947.
It is not the same camera as the Combat Graflex that did indeed use 70mm roll film. This one was introduced in 1953, too late for the war in Korea, but it did see service in Vietnam

Horatio · Jan 8, 2021

If you’re looking for raw grain, try Foma 400 in Rodinal. Quite gritty.

Paul Howell · Jan 8, 2021

Mr Flibble said:
The Combat Graphic was a 4x5" camera. It saw only limited service towards the end of WW2, mainly with the US Navy and USMC and it was succeeded with a military version of the Pacemaker Graphic in 1947.
It is not the same camera as the Combat Graflex that did indeed use 70mm roll film. This one was introduced in 1953, too late for the war in Korea, but it did see service in Vietnam

Your right, mixed up hic with flex.

RLangham · Jan 11, 2021

I think Shanghai BW films are pretty basic and old-fashioned, and the faster ones will have old-looking grain. I've shot Shanghai Pan 100 in both 4x5 and 120 to good results.

Have you considered Dektol 3:1 at ~3--3.5 minutes?

RLangham · Jan 11, 2021

Mr Flibble said:
The Combat Graphic was a 4x5" camera. It saw only limited service towards the end of WW2, mainly with the US Navy and USMC and it was succeeded with a military version of the Pacemaker Graphic in 1947.
It is not the same camera as the Combat Graflex that did indeed use 70mm roll film. This one was introduced in 1953, too late for the war in Korea, but it did see service in Vietnam

Both ugly as I remember! But then again the only Graphic that I really find elegant is the Anniversary 4x5...

Slick60 · Jan 11, 2021

Thank you all for your help. I have never used Shanghai films, although I see them in many shops online and the ones I visited. As for Dektol, I did not consider that but upon further reading it seems that it could be a possible developer. I did not know that it could be used as a film developer. Some of the sample images look wonderful and seem to capture emotion and purpose very well.

I do not believe I would ever attempt to portray the raw emotion of the 1000 yard stare. Like I mentioned, I have friends who have served and could help me out. One, let’s say his name is Jonathan, has mentioned some of his experiences before. It wasn’t the sight that bothered him or that he remembers, but the smell. Somebody like that would be an excellent candidate for a “1000 yard state photo” but I don’t want to trigger any emotion or memories for him so I probably will not bring it up.

Slick60

eli griggs · Jan 11, 2021

Do no forget the chemistry temperature being elevated by the lack of AC in some areas, and possibly, dirty water from local taps

What was the average temperature of film developed in the field or bases without clean darkroom facilities

What fixers were used, plus stops.

Cheers.

RLangham · Jan 12, 2021

Slick60 said:
Thank you all for your help. I have never used Shanghai films, although I see them in many shops online and the ones I visited. As for Dektol, I did not consider that but upon further reading it seems that it could be a possible developer. I did not know that it could be used as a film developer. Some of the sample images look wonderful and seem to capture emotion and purpose very well.

Lots of people do not recommend or believe in Dektol as a film developer but for my own B/W work I like it much more than the less active, less contrasty developers.

Shanghai is not a superfilm but it is a film with more-than-adequate characteristics for general photography, and Dektol is not an optimized film developer, being optimized for various papers, but I find it more-than-adequate for some styles of general photography.

If you're trying for the look of photographers out in the jungle using whatever's most easily available, I bet the combination would do alright. I'm not gonna make any extraordinary claim though.

eli griggs · Jan 12, 2021

Do try developing in too warm water to see if that helps give you some of the attributes of that era's combat photography.

Paul Howell · Jan 12, 2021

eli griggs said:
Do no forget the chemistry temperature being elevated by the lack of AC in some areas, and possibly, dirty water from local taps

What was the average temperature of film developed in the field or bases without clean darkroom facilities

What fixers were used, plus stops.

Cheers.

All American forces had access to well equipped darkrooms, the Air Force and Army had portable darkroom that could airlifted, all metal with AC and chilled water. Air Force version had color capability and were equipped with Omega D5s. A variety of developers on hand, D76 being the most common. The North Vietnamese and Viet Cong would develop their film at night in the open using a small dish to see saw their film using water from streams, let it hang and dry the best they could before sending it North.

Paul Howell · Jan 12, 2021

Here is an image

Wallendo · Jan 12, 2021

This thread is all about machinations behind the lens, but whatever you stage in front of the lens will probably be much more important to create the images you want.

RLangham · Jan 12, 2021

Wallendo said:
This thread is all about machinations behind the lens, but whatever you stage in front of the lens will probably be much more important to create the images you want.

I think it's important to look at the process as a whole.

eli griggs · Jan 12, 2021

Yes, I know about the portable darkrooms, but that does no mean that all the photojournalist in country had access to them or other controlled environments.

By-the-way, you can bid on portable military darkrooms on Government surplus sites,.

The one that I was looking at, many years ago, included a burn silver recovery system and if I could afford one, I'd rather use it than the small bedroom I have now, no meaning to spit on my current good luck on having my own now.

According to the few web sites I've looked at, Caffenol was a college discovery in 1995, which I question.

Was Coffee used as a developer in Vietnam?

Was it the developer used to make a phony passport picture in the movie "The Killing Fields?"

Were any ad hoc developers used by photojournalist?

With infrastructure being a prime target for the North and Vietcong, did all the hotels, the photographers in the South lived in or rented on trips in country, above having their power cut off with no generator to get by on until restored?

There are many aspects to this "Go Back Machine" effort to duplicate they shots coming out of that War, which demand answers to make the O.P. goal's achievable.

IMO.

Paul Howell · Jan 12, 2021

Most photojournalist worked for the wires or newspapers, mags, which had access to darkrooms. Others would take their rolls to established commercial darkrooms. I don't recall ever hearing or reading about a freelancer with his own darkroom, not that didn't happen, just off my radar. If you look at the difference between the western PJ, and the work of the North's army photographers you can clearly see the difference in quality. In all the years I worked for the wires I only developed my negatives in the field on rare occasion and never printed, the negatives were sent to home or field office to be printed and sent by the wire. One story I did hear, told by a Navy photo, mate said he made money by developing for a couple of freelances at night, got caught and lost a pay grade.

Paul Howell · Jan 12, 2021

One thing to remember is freelancers got paid for pictures, the made money by shooting, covering stories not spending time in the darkroom.

CMoore · Jan 12, 2021

Slick60 said:
Hello. I’m new to the forum but have been a “long time lurker” for a while and done a lot of reading. Lots of great information on the forum. I shoot B/W, have my own darkroom with a Vivitar VI enlarger, and own several cameras including a Nikonos II, Canon AE-1, and a Mamiya M645. I shoot 120 most of the time.

I was inspired by the raw and dramatic photos by David Duncan Douglas and Henri Huet from the Vietnam War and would like to try to recreate some in the future. I inherited a large portion of Vietnam era military uniforms and gear (did my reading as a kid so I remember them from the books) and I’m trying to create accurate photos from the time period, just to display in my darkroom and albums.

I’m thinking of using some 35mm Tri-X, as well as a red and green filter. Im also trying to use period-accurate developers, so maybe some HC-110 or D-76? If you have any suggestions for film stock or developer or if you were a combat photographer or served feel free to add on.

Thanks,

Slick60

This might interest you..... Good Luck

https://www.amazon.com/Another-Viet...K2571TKXY4N&psc=1&refRID=T0QKSSWXAK2571TKXY4N

RLangham · Jan 12, 2021

Paul Howell said:
Most photojournalist worked for the wires or newspapers, mags, which had access to darkrooms. Others would take their rolls to established commercial darkrooms. I don't recall ever hearing or reading about a freelancer with his own darkroom, not that didn't happen, just off my radar. If you look at the difference between the western PJ, and the work of the North's army photographers you can clearly see the difference in quality. In all the years I worked for the wires I only developed my negatives in the field on rare occasion and never printed, the negatives were sent to home or field office to be printed and sent by the wire. One story I did hear, told by a Navy photo, mate said he made money by developing for a couple of freelances at night, got caught and lost a pay grade.

Well, didn't Wegee develop and contact print in his car trunk in some kind of dark box?

MattKing · Jan 12, 2021

RLangham said:
Well, didn't Wegee develop and contact print in his car trunk in some kind of dark box?

Yes, but that was a different time, and a different environment, and he would have delivered prints, on spec, to editors in his city.

eli griggs · Jan 13, 2021

I've developed films in tiny utility closets on top of washer dryer or storage boxes and just enough room to pull the door after me, and then developed contact sheets from the dried film, using only a 60 watt house bulb, all so I could get contact sheets back to dancers, and others, within a few hours for taking print orders from my out of town darkroom, and there are others here that have used the same type methods in other small spaces, so I do no see why others back in the day, as I previously said, would no do the same under various conditions.

Freelancers, working on their own likely did no have access to 'better' facilities, and conceivably, barely afford to being in that wartime nation at all, especially if critical of the American and our allies presence in Vietnam in the first place.

IMO.

Paul Howell · Jan 13, 2021

Again, for OP purposes the work done by JP, employed or freelance during that time period was very good, another reason, it had to good enough to be sent by the wire, no matter how a freelancer produced a print it had to be of the same quality of a employed PJ. To replicate the look, use a set of good quality primes from the day, use Foma 400, develop in D76 stock, print hard. In my opinion finding the right models, lean, right hair cuts, right clothing, right props is more of a challenge.

eli griggs · Jan 13, 2021

When I was in the Army, the Army, through unit Commanders at the Battalion level to the battery or Company level, spared no paint to let us know we could start small business, in my case, photography or find occasional work, that did no interfere with our duty, in my and a buddy's case, 'C' level work as longshoremen, in Seattle, on occasion.

Now this is just three years after we wrapped up operations, in South Vietnam, in '76, onward, (at least during the Carter years) so no so much difference in time period, and, if you check with your National Guard, or the closest Army or Marine bases, especially, with units bringing back troops from Iraq, Afghanistan, you may find what you need in models.

You can probably find out which units are newly returned, with worn uniforms, etc, from the base or unit Public Relations Officer.

Good Luck.

mgb74 · Jan 13, 2021

MattKing said:
Yes, but that was a different time, and a different environment, and he would have delivered prints, on spec, to editors in his city.

And have the photos, from negatives shot that night, ready for the morning edition.

Paul Howell · Jan 14, 2021

Weegee was one of a kind, great eye, had the nior look, I doubt what he could have been done in any city other than New York, in the 40s and early 50s.

Trying to Recreate Vietnam War B/W

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