Trying to figure out Frame order for old Kodak format 120 Film

[ghelfrich919]

I have a couple of questions which I was hoping someone could help me with. Let me give everyone a little more background as to what I am trying to do.

My mother passed away back in 2008, and my brother has given me all her old film negatives and pictures. Over the course of time, I have been scanning these old negatives and pictures. The film she has is both color/B&w format 120 film as well as color format 135. I have already gone through and done an initial scan of all the film negatives so far.

I have saved each picture starting with a unique number to identify the roll of film along with an appended incremented number to represent the frame. Each scanned frame was given such an identifier being the next film placed on the scanner from the stack of film grouped for the film roll. The film was not any time given to scan in sequential frame order.

Now I am going back and sequencing the frame number I mentioned to represent the time sequential order of the frames. This is intended to represent the time order the pictures were taken by the shooter. For example, the picture taken first would be given a number like this "unique identifier"_01 and so on to the last frame. For the format 135 film, this is easy since the frames are numbered.

Here is my problem. For the format 120 film, this is not an easy task since the film I have is not numbered for each frame. And I have found that a pile of 120 film in an envelope which I thought was all part of the same roll is actually a combination of more that a single film roll. I discovered this when I realized the film in the roll was different. So far, it is all Kodak film, but the Kodak label may be different. Digging a little further, I realized the format 120 film she has should only have 12-13 frames, not the 20-30+ in several cases I have found.

From what I see, typically the film was cut by the developer into sheets with 2 frames on each. And it seems there was a common practice of possibly sharing a negative with others by cutting part some of these sheets. In many situations, I have a single frame along with sheets of 2 frames which has led to this conclusion.

Without frame numbering on the format 120 film, it has been very challenging to reconstruct the order of the frames in time sequence, particularly with only single negatives in some cases. I have been using a magnifying glass to piece the film in order by matching cut marks and piecing edge markings along with the subject matter on the film itself to get a fairly accurate time sequence I believe.

So now, here is my question. As I said, so far the format 120 film has all been Kodak. Since the dates for the subject matters on the film is not known to me, I don't know which end of the film is the picture taken first to give the time sequence with which to number my pictures. You'd think I could figure this out, but so far I have not been able to figure out a method I can use to do this. The time sequence the shooter took the pictures is not very evident particularly if there are only a couple of pictures of an event along with a couple of pictures of other events on the same film.

I don't know which event took place first to time order the pictures. I thought the edge marking on the film might tell me which end of the roll was the end with the first taken picture. For all the Kokak 120 film, it is marked with the phrase below repeating and equally spaced along the outer edge of the film:

<<< Kokak Safety Film

I thought the direction of the phrase would/could give me an indication on the picture sequence. Additionally, I was thinking the arrow marker in front of the repeating phrase could also give me a method to find the first frame taken if I understood if the first frame was towards or away from the arrow.

I have tried to find any info online that would tell me how Kodak marked their 120 film I have to tel[ me the film direction. This will help me to reconstruct the time sequence of the film to make it easier to view with family as well as provide more info for historical purposes.

Does anyone have any insight into how Kodak labeled this 120 film as I mentioned to know whether the arrow points towards or away from the picture taken first?

Any help/insight is greatly appreciated.

Gerry

 

[fotch]

Hello Gerry and welcome to APUG. Looks like a nearly impossible project. I certainly will follow what is posted as it may be useful info. Good luck.

 

[MattKing]

First, welcome to APUG.

All the Kodak 120 film I've ever worked with in the last 35+ years had edge numbers. In most cases there are two sets of numbers - one on each edge. Current films have 41 through 55 on one side, and 1 through 12 on the other. My older negatives (I've got a few handy from the 1970s) have just one set of numbers - 1 through 12.

There are now two sets, because 120 film can be used in a variety of cameras, which feature a variety of formats.

A 120 roll can have 8, 9, 10, 12, 15 or 16 exposures on it, depending on the camera. The two sets of numbers allow one to differentiate the shots no matter what format was shot.

Some cameras also permitted use of 220 film, which is twice as long, and has twice as many numbers (1 through 24).

Looking through some of my 120 negatives from the 1970s, I note that some of them have arrows that are adjacent to the frame numbers, and point in the same direction as the numbers increase.

I have a single example of another Kodak 120 film from the 1970s where the arrows are not adjacent to the numbers, but instead on the edge opposite to them. The arrow is superimposed on top of the word "FILM" in the phrase "KODAK SAFETY FILM, and is oriented in the opposite direction to the numbers - it points toward the beginning of the roll, where the number is 1, rather than the end of the roll, where the number is 12.

All my negatives from the 1970s that are easily at hand are black and white.

FWIW, I have one roll of Ilford HP4 120 film from that period as well. It has two sets of arrows, with the ones on the side where the numbers are pointing toward the beginning of the roll, and the ones on the side where it says "Ilford HP4 Safety Film" pointing toward the end of the roll.

Is there any chance that the negatives are not 120, but rather one of the obsolete sizes used in the myriad of Kodak (and other) folding cameras?

It might help if you shared with us the exact measurements of the image area and film width of the film you are working with.

Hope this helps.

 

[snapguy]

negs

The 120-size Kodak film I have from the late 1940s says KODAK SAFETY FILM on one edge and no numbers or arrows at all. This might be 620 film (same size as 120, different spools).
My 120 film from the 1950s has KODAK SAFETY FILM on one edge but no numbers or arrows anywhere.
My 120 film from the 1960s say KODAK SAFETY FILM on one edge and numbers on the other edge. Some rolls have an arrow before each number but the arrows are missing on other rolls. On other rolls the word "KODAK" is light on the neg and inside a dark area with a point on one end, like an arrow.
My 120 film from the 1970s has KODAK SAFETY FILM on one edge and "FILM" is in a dark area with a point on the end. The arrow point is stubby compared to the ones from the 1960s.

 

[Doremus Scudder]

And then there's 220 film... twice as many exposures on a roll as 120.

What is the format? square? rectangular? 6x7? 6x9? 4.25x6?

I don't think you're going to be able to sequence as you wish. Perhaps you can group by subject and get a sort of general sequencing, but, lacking frame numbers, you only have the subject matter itself to guide you.

Best,

Doremus

 

[bdial]

There are really too many variables to get to a real solution. If you knew how the film was oriented in the camera, then you could deduce the sequence for that roll.
For example;
For most 120/620 folders the film travels from left to right as the camera is facing away from the operator.
The image projects onto the film upside down from the scene.
So, if you are looking at the emulsion side of the film with the images upright, the earliest frame for that roll or strip would be on your right.
But, on some cameras the film travels vertically, so the earliest frame might be on the top (assuming a square image from a Twin-lens reflex).
There are many exceptions however.
You will probably do better sorting by subject matter, and clues in the images like seasons, pictures of one particular person at various ages, or the year model of cars, etc.

 

[nworth]

Kodak film has two sets of numbers. One is 1-12 and roughly corresponds to 2-1/4 square frames. Often these numbers do not line up very well. The other is a set of index numbers, usually starting at 41. These do not line up with anything, but I usually use them when indexing the negatives. (I use the first number that appears wholly within the frame. It works pretty well.) Film from other manufacturers usually does not have the index numbers, and indexing the negatives is more difficult, especially if you use formats other than 2-1/4 square.

 

[ic-racer]

Many cameras run the film from bottom to top or left-to-right. But this is not 100%. Do you have the camera? Can you show a picture of the film markings? What film format are we talking about? Horizontal or vertical?