Trying Out Revere Platinum For The First Time

[Andrew O'Neill]

I have been using Hahnemuhle Platinum Rag for several years now, and wanted to give Revere Platinum a go...

 

[pentaxuser]

Thanks Andy Quite fascinating for someone like me who knows nothing of this process. So the next question/observation might tempt you to tell me to read-up on the Platinum process first whereupon the answer to my question might become clear but here goes: Why during and at the end of the process did the prints look a golden reddish brown but appear to lose that look almost entirely when you showed the scans when they became much closer to the grey colour of normal darkroom prints?

There may be a video of yours on Platinum printing to which you can refer me if that makes things easier?

Thanks

pentaxuser

PS I assume you were up in the early hours to receive the Revere paper from him once he had completed his famous midnight ride.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Thanks Andy Quite fascinating for someone like me who knows nothing of this process. So the next question/observation might tempt you to tell me to read-up on the Platinum process first whereupon the answer to my question might become clear but here goes: Why during and at the end of the process did the prints look a golden reddish brown but appear to lose that look almost entirely when you showed the scans when they became much closer to the grey colour of normal darkroom prints?

There may be a video of yours on Platinum printing to which you can refer me if that makes things easier?

Thanks

pentaxuser

PS I assume you were up in the early hours to receive the Revere paper from him once he had completed his famous midnight ride.

I always get up at 4:30 Old Paul's probably still in bed...
I've never made Platinum prints. Too expensive! The poor man's Platinum...the Kallitype... will have to do...
The colour always changes when dried. It's something that I have learnt to live with over the years. It seems to be more pronounced when I use Sodium Citrate developer, and not so much with Sodium Acetate... My Gold toner was a bit past its best before date... A more fresh solution will shift the tones to cooler tones, more quickly. I like the used toner, as it seems to give a more split toned look, cooling the highlights more... and still giving an increase in dmax. Price of Gold? $100US/gram!

 

[Acere]

Great subject and great image! I really like the final Selenium toned print, it really brings out the dark areas. I must say, that cross almost seems unchanged no matter the process and really completes the picture.

Rolando

 

[Ben 4]

Love both the selenium and gold prints!

 

[koraks]

Why during and at the end of the process did the prints look a golden reddish brown but appear to lose that look almost entirely when you showed the scans when they became much closer to the grey colour of normal darkroom prints?

I think this is actually a pretty complex process, and to the best of my understanding, these two effects play a notable role:

1: Tiny silver particles (so-called 'nanoparticles') are quite colorful and their color depends on their physical size (among probably some other factors). For instance, silver bromide and silver iodide particles can be white to pale yellow, whereas colloidal purse silver particles can range from yellow to black, depending on their size. Alternative processes tend to form especially these very tiny metal particles and as a result, they tend to be quite colorful.

2: During wet processing of the paper, the paper is actually a swollen, 3-dimensional mat of fibers with the tiny particles occupying mostly the top layers of this mat. They're distributed somewhat across the top layer of the paper, adhering to the paper fibers. As the paper dries, this swollen mat decreases in thickness and compresses. This brings the metal particles closer to each other as well (not just the paper fibers get pressed against each other - everything that adheres to them does so as well) and this apparently creates larger agglomerates of metal particles. Heating the paper can help along this process; 'heat toning' is a popular way of intensifying the blacks of e.g. salted paper prints, making the blacks blacker and the image tone more neutral.

Undoubtedly, lots of other factors influence this process as well. Notably, with toning, the partial replacement of silver (e.g. gold, platinum or palladium toning) or complexing of silver with other compounds (selenium and sepia/sulfer toning) influences the chromacity of the particles. Material aspects such as the paper's pH and especially additional sizing also play a role.

Perhaps if he's willing, @nmp could say a word or two about this as well; I suspect that he might know a thing or two I don't, or that I simply got wrong in the above

 

[Rolleiflexible]

I always get up at 4:30 Old Paul's probably still in bed...
I've never made Platinum prints. Too expensive! The poor man's Platinum...the Kallitype... will have to do...
The colour always changes when dried. It's something that I have learnt to live with over the years. It seems to be more pronounced when I use Sodium Citrate developer, and not so much with Sodium Acetate... My Gold toner was a bit past its best before date... A more fresh solution will shift the tones to cooler tones, more quickly. I like the used toner, as it seems to give a more split toned look, cooling the highlights more... and still giving an increase in dmax. Price of Gold? $100US/gram!

I switched developers, from sodium citrate to sodium acetate, because the latter seems to give a more neutral untoned print with greater contrast. In theory, in a well-toned kallitype the toner completely replaces the silver in the untoned print -- the common wisdom is that the choice of developer is thus not determinative of the color of a finished toned kallitype. That has not been my experience. But that might say more about my ineffective toning techniques than the accuracy of the common wisdom.

I love Revere Platinum paper. It's a great paper for iron-based printing processes -- easily the equal of HPR, and a third less expensive. Use the savings to buy more toner! You might check prices at Artcraft Chemicals -- I don't know how much Michael charges for gold but I can tell you his prices for platinum are $39/gram, and that is enough to tone many dozens of prints:

Potassium Tetrachloroplatinate (II)- Formula: K2PtCl4 (Part#: PT283-1)

priced per gram

artcraftchemicals.com

 

[MattKing]

I watched the video this morning on the laptop sitting on our corner desk - which means my screen was sitting about 90 cm/3 feet below an original Andrew O'Neill Kallitype of the same image that Andrew gave me in a print swap a few years ago.
Do you remember Andrew what your paper and process was for it?
FWIW, the original print one on the wall is slightly lower in contrast, and slightly lighter than what I see in the various versions on the video.
In particular, in the original print the tone on the walls is noticeably lighter.
Is the difference due o the artist's vision maturing ?
And yes, I consider myself really fortunate to have that print from Andrew on the wall.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I watched the video this morning on the laptop sitting on our corner desk - which means my screen was sitting about 90 cm/3 feet below an original Andrew O'Neill Kallitype of the same image that Andrew gave me in a print swap a few years ago.
Do you remember Andrew what your paper and process was for it?
FWIW, the original print one on the wall is slightly lower in contrast, and slightly lighter than what I see in the various versions on the video.
In particular, in the original print the tone on the walls is noticeably lighter.
Is the difference due o the artist's vision maturing ?
And yes, I consider myself really fortunate to have that print from Andrew on the wall.

Thanks, Matt! I'm thrilled that you like it! The print you gave me was an eyeopener... When I was doing all gelatin silver printing, it was only on fibre-based paper. RC was inferior... but your print changed my snotty attitude. Such velvety tones!
I think your print of Broken is on Stonehenge... I don't think I was using Hahnemuhle at that time... or it might even be Arches Platine. Actually, I think it was the Arches. I think I Selenium Toned yours. I've noticed that Gold toning increases dmax significantly, whereas Selenium can lighten it if you take it too far. Didn't Ansel tend to over tone or print too heavy in his later years?

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I switched developers, from sodium citrate to sodium acetate, because the latter seems to give a more neutral untoned print with greater contrast. In theory, in a well-toned kallitype the toner completely replaces the silver in the untoned print -- the common wisdom is that the choice of developer is thus not determinative of the color of a finished toned kallitype. That has not been my experience. But that might say more about my ineffective toning techniques than the accuracy of the common wisdom.

I love Revere Platinum paper. It's a great paper for iron-based printing processes -- easily the equal of HPR, and a third less expensive. Use the savings to buy more toner! You might check prices at Artcraft Chemicals -- I don't know how much Michael charges for gold but I can tell you his prices for platinum are $39/gram, and that is enough to tone many dozens of prints:

Potassium Tetrachloroplatinate (II)- Formula: K2PtCl4 (Part#: PT283-1)

priced per gram

artcraftchemicals.com

I'll look into Artcraft Chemicals! Thank you!

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

I think this is actually a pretty complex process, and to the best of my understanding, these two effects play a notable role:

1: Tiny silver particles (so-called 'nanoparticles') are quite colorful and their color depends on their physical size (among probably some other factors). For instance, silver bromide and silver iodide particles can be white to pale yellow, whereas colloidal purse silver particles can range from yellow to black, depending on their size. Alternative processes tend to form especially these very tiny metal particles and as a result, they tend to be quite colorful.

2: During wet processing of the paper, the paper is actually a swollen, 3-dimensional mat of fibers with the tiny particles occupying mostly the top layers of this mat. They're distributed somewhat across the top layer of the paper, adhering to the paper fibers. As the paper dries, this swollen mat decreases in thickness and compresses. This brings the metal particles closer to each other as well (not just the paper fibers get pressed against each other - everything that adheres to them does so as well) and this apparently creates larger agglomerates of metal particles. Heating the paper can help along this process; 'heat toning' is a popular way of intensifying the blacks of e.g. salted paper prints, making the blacks blacker and the image tone more neutral.

Undoubtedly, lots of other factors influence this process as well. Notably, with toning, the partial replacement of silver (e.g. gold, platinum or palladium toning) or complexing of silver with other compounds (selenium and sepia/sulfer toning) influences the chromacity of the particles. Material aspects such as the paper's pH and especially additional sizing also play a role.

Perhaps if he's willing, @nmp could say a word or two about this as well; I suspect that he might know a thing or two I don't, or that I simply got wrong in the above

This is all good stuff! Thank you!
Paper type can play a roll, ph of tap water, humidity of room...air drying/blowdrying freshly sensitised paper... there are many variables at play.

 

[Rolleiflexible]

This is all good stuff! Thank you!
Paper type can play a roll, ph of tap water, humidity of room...air drying/blowdrying freshly sensitised paper... there are many variables at play.

Agitation during development (and toning) plays a big role too.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Agitation during development (and toning) plays a big role too.

I find a lengthy time in the developer helps smooth out tones, and increases dmax slightly.

 

[cliveh]

Andy, you are the Jamie Oliver of darkroom processes. You make it look so easy.

 

[pentaxuser]

I always get up at 4:30 Old Paul's probably still in bed...
I've never made Platinum prints. Too expensive! The poor man's Platinum...the Kallitype... will have to do...
The colour always changes when dried. It's something that I have learnt to live with over the years. It seems to be more pronounced when I use Sodium Citrate developer, and not so much with Sodium Acetate... My Gold toner was a bit past its best before date... A more fresh solution will shift the tones to cooler tones, more quickly. I like the used toner, as it seems to give a more split toned look, cooling the highlights more... and still giving an increase in dmax. Price of Gold? $100US/gram!

Thanks. Andy. If I had got up later I might have been more awake and realised that Revere Platinum was simply the name of the paper and what you were showing was not a Platinum print

 

[nmp]

Thanks Andrew for the nice video. I bet you will make a good live golf commentator with your whispering style....I could use a little louder sound though...

Looking at the results from the two papers - which seem to be nearly identical both from the tone as well as contrast perspectives - one would wonder if they came from the same mill. Is Legion making both papers? It will be interesting to compare the two for gum printing as well - since HPR is such a standard for that process as well, requiring no sizing etc. (idea for a new video!)

Also you are getting a very nice effect with the selenium toner, something I have not been able to do with salt prints at all - usually ends up with severe bleaching, even when diluted to same degree or more. I have seen reports of others struggling with VDB and kallitype as well. What's the secret?

Regarding the color changes, here's what O'Reilly had to say, generally in agrement with @koraks, in his book on salt printing which should also hold for kallitypes, albeit having a slightly more complicated process prior to fixing:

>>>>>

COLOR CHANGES DURING FIXATION
During fixation the prints undergo a dramatic change in color, in which the original brilliant purple or brown color is transformed into a much yellower and duller brown hue, accompanied at the same time by a loss of density. The reasons for this color and density change — a characteristic phenomenon in all silver printing-out papers — have to do with the physical structure of the metallic silver which forms the image. In an exposed but unfixed print the silver image particles exist in a highly dispersed state, forming a kind of "solid solution" of metallic silver in silver chloride. 6 The color and density of this system is determined by the size and amount of metallic particles as well
as the combined refractive indices of silver chloride and whatever binder materials have been used on the paper.

Upon fixation the silver chloride is removed and the metallic silver particles undergo a "packing" process and accumulate into aggregates of particles. At the same time the refractive index of the system is lowered by the removal of the silver chloride. Together these physical and chemical changes cause a loss of particle covering power — i.e., print density — and shift the color of the print toward yellow. In fact, any physical change in the image layer causes a shift of print color. A good example of this is the reddening of prints that occurs when they are placed in the initial wash water; swelling of the image
layer is the actual cause of the color shift. When prints dry they undergo another change, becoming more neutral in color and gaining slightly in density as the image layer contracts.

>>>>>


:Niranjan

 

[koraks]

Thanks for posting that excerpt @nmp, I don't think I've ever read that specific passage, but it sounds quite familiar indeed!

 

[Rolleiflexible]

Looking at the results from the two papers - which seem to be nearly identical both from the tone as well as contrast perspectives - one would wonder if they came from the same mill. Is Legion making both papers? It will be interesting to compare the two for gum printing as well - since HPR is such a standard for that process as well, requiring no sizing etc. (idea for a new video!)

Also you are getting a very nice effect with the selenium toner, something I have not been able to do with salt prints at all - usually ends up with severe bleaching, even when diluted to same degree or more. I have seen reports of others struggling with VDB and kallitype as well. What's the secret?

Re papers: I have used both extensively, and I can attest that for my kallitypes they do look and handle alike. Maybe others can see a difference. I usually cannot. To me, the big differences are that Revere is a third less expensive than HPR here in the US, Legion is a US supplier, and Legion is accessible and responsive to the artists who use their papers. When I do see a difference in prints on both papers, I tend to prefer the Revere version. But they are very close.

While the papers seem similar, I am certain that they are different. Revere is a bit heavier, and larger sheets have two deckled edges. (I love the deckled edging.) Legion spent a lot of time working with leading platinum printers to formulate Revere. Legion sources a number of other important papers, like Arches Platine and Rives BFK. But HPR is clearly a Hahnemühle product.

Re selenium: Again speaking of kallitypes, a little goes a long way. I use Wolfgang Moersch’s MT1 selenium toner, diluted to 1:250, and I tone after fixing for no more than a minute or two. That’s enough to get a color shift without bleaching out the image. Wolfgang has written usefully on fixing and toning kallitypes, and I am following his advice here.

 

[Rolleiflexible]

I have been using Hahnemuhle Platinum Rag for several years now, and wanted to give Revere Platinum a go...

Andrew, why do you wear gloves when you print kallitypes? I never bother and maybe I should. :-O

 

[nmp]

Re papers: I have used both extensively, and I can attest that for my kallitypes they do look and handle alike. Maybe others can see a difference. I usually cannot. To me, the big differences are that Revere is a third less expensive than HPR here in the US, Legion is a US supplier, and Legion is accessible and responsive to the artists who use their papers. When I do see a difference in prints on both papers, I tend to prefer the Revere version. But they are very close.

My first choice for un-buffered paper has been the COT 320, but I did buy a 11x15 box of Revere a couple of years ago when COT 320 became unavailable. I have yet to do anything with it and in the meantime COT 320 is back in stock so no hurry to find an alternative. Incidentally COT 320 is about the same price as Revere (actually a little less.) I will have to find a good use for my Revere's at some point - may be kallitypes if I ever go that way (i have a bottle of Pd that should come in handy for toning.)

While the papers seem similar, I am certain that they are different. Revere is a bit heavier, and larger sheets have two deckled edges. (I love the deckled edging.) Legion spent a lot of time working with leading platinum printers to formulate Revere. Legion sources a number of other important papers, like Arches Platine and Rives BFK. But HPR is clearly a Hahnemühle product.

Makes sense. I guess Hahnemuhle is a big enough outfit to not have to outsource their papers.

Re selenium: Again speaking of kallitypes, a little goes a long way. I use Wolfgang Moersch’s MT1 selenium toner, diluted to 1:250, and I tone after fixing for no more than a minute or two. That’s enough to get a color shift without bleaching out the image. Wolfgang has written usefully on fixing and toning kallitypes, and I am following his advice here.

I bought a bottle of MT16 on Moersch's advice for salt prints - it a mixed selenium and sulfide toner without the thiosulfate which is supposedly responsible for bleaching behavior in KRST. But no go. May be it's the nature of silver in salt vs kallitypes. Might have to play around some more and go really dilute and really short and see there is a benefit. My primary goal for toning salt prints is to increase the Dmax with an added benefit of stability - I am not looking to make it more neutral as such as I am partial to warm prints anyway.

:Niranjan.

 

[KYsailor]

I have been using Hahnemuhle Platinum Rag for several years now, and wanted to give Revere Platinum a go...

Andrew,

Thanks so much for this video - always great to see how others are doing Kallitype, and pick up on some of their technique. Could I ask a few questions - for the citric acid clearing bath, I assume it is about 3% - do you leave it in just till it clears of a fixed time. Also for your fixer - using standard hypo at about 5%? and how long. I have never used selenium toning and I was surprised that it is applied after the fixer, rather than before - like with your gold toned print - is this the typical way to used this type of toner. Also a very nice image and it prints beautifully on either paper. Again thanks for the video -

Dave Najewicz

 

[Rolleiflexible]

I have never used selenium toning and I was surprised that it is applied after the fixer, rather than before - like with your gold toned print - is this the typical way to used this type of toner. Also a very nice image and it prints beautifully on either paper.

The common wisdom, explained by Sandy King in his Alternative Photography discussion of kallitypes, is that toning with selenium before fixing risks staining the print by interacting with residual silver nitrate. It is said that toning with selenium after fixing reduces this risk. I have not observed this issue so I cannot speak from experience.

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

Andrew,

Thanks so much for this video - always great to see how others are doing Kallitype, and pick up on some of their technique. Could I ask a few questions - for the citric acid clearing bath, I assume it is about 3% - do you leave it in just till it clears of a fixed time. Also for your fixer - using standard hypo at about 5%? and how long. I have never used selenium toning and I was surprised that it is applied after the fixer, rather than before - like with your gold toned print - is this the typical way to used this type of toner. Also a very nice image and it prints beautifully on either paper. Again thanks for the video -

Dave Najewicz

Yes the citric acid bath is 3%. I clear for one minute. I'm using the same fixer outlined by Sandy King in his Kallitype printing procedure. I was using hypo/ammonia fix but ammonia seems unobtainable in Canada. At least I haven't been able to find any at the supermarket (along with washing soda, for that matter)

 

[Andrew O'Neill]

@KYsailor ...Selenium is typically done after fixing, otherwise the selenium could react with any remaining silver nitrate in the paper and cause staining. I tried it once and I got an ugly pink colour