trying matte paper

[RalphLambrecht]

I got tired of glossy papers and wanted to try a matte paper.someone suggested Museo to me; especially recommended for fine -art B&W. It's of course a matter of personal taste but, it's not for me. the prints look lifeless compared to a glossy paper; contrast and Dmax are weskit also just eats through ink; only plus I see is a very neutral gray tone; not a hint of a color shift in any lighting condition but, I think,I'll stay with glossy paper and live with the reflections. maybe, I'll try a pearl or satin surface instead. What's your experience?

 

[Bob Carnie]

MODERATOR's NOTE: Post concerning darkroom papers is off topic, but left in for posterity sake.

{Ilford Warmtone Matt is beautiful with a slight, slight sepia and then selenium

Art 300 is beautiful toned or un toned.

My two favourite papers these days.}

 

[Ko.Fe.]

I can't imagine my BW printed on anything else but matte. Gloss is gross for BW.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I can't imagine my BW printed on anything else but matte. Gloss is gross for BW.

but the impact of contrast and deep blacks cannot be achieved other wise.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Ilford Warmtone Matt is beautiful with a slight, slight sepia and then selenium

Art 300 is beautiful toned or un toned.

My two favourite papers these days.

Bob, did you realize I was talking about inkjet paper?

 

[faberryman]

I bought a bunch of glossy sample packs from different manufactures and printed a single image on 20-30 different papers. Personally, I don't like the texture of satin and pearl finishes. They have an unnatural, drugstore-like sheen, making the prints look cheap. So I settled on Canson Baryta Photographique. I found it to be the closet to a standard glossy photographic paper look. I need to run through the same exercise with matte papers. I haven't done it so far because if I want a matte finish I print platinum palladium.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Matte and glossy surface papers have different purposes. Matte reduces the emphasis of fine detail whereas glossy does the opposite and is intended when an image has specular highlights. It is the image which should decide which paper to use.

 

[1kgcoffee]

Can you elaborate Gerald? Matte is better for soft light portraits?

 

[faberryman]

Matte and glossy surface papers have different purposes. Matte reduces the emphasis of fine detail whereas glossy does the opposite and is intended when an image has specular highlights. It is the image which should decide which paper to use.

Hmm. I also thought is was just an aesthetic choice.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

Matte and glossy surface papers have different purposes. Matte reduces the emphasis of fine detail whereas glossy does the opposite and is intended when an image has specular highlights. It is the image which should decide which paper to use.

interesting approach.

 

[nmp]

interesting approach.

Glossy for Adams and matte for Stieglitz...

 

[Bob Carnie]

Bob, did you realize I was talking about inkjet paper?

No I did not, but for a beautiful inkjet paper I like Museum Etching by Hannamuhle

 

[removed account4]

i've printed on both and disliked how glossy papers are so reflective glare-y
and have never understood why people LOVE glossy paper so much .. blech.
staples? photowarehouse? used to sell a double sided matte finish cheap ink jet paper
it was fantastic.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

No I did not, but for a beautiful inkjet paper I like Museum Etching by Hannamuhle

OK, I'll give that a try.

 

[nmp]

Generally I don't like the glossy or the so-called premium glossy papers that printer manufacturers make. They have the cold plasticky look. Kind of like the RC papers of the inkjet printing. I like the Ilford Gold Fiber Silk which is a "baryta" paper fashioned after the traditional fiber baryta papers that apugers will be familiar with. Canson's Baryta Photographique is very similar. They are not exactly the same as the fiber based silver gelatine but as close as can be expected. They have a slight tooth that makes the glare not so distracting.

For matte, my favorite has been the Canson Rag Photographique. Probably best combination of texture, tone and Dmax and price that I found in my search earlier on. I have sampled a few others since then but found no reason to switch.

 

[Bob Carnie]

Generally I don't like the glossy or the so-called premium glossy papers that printer manufacturers make. They have the cold plasticky look. Kind of like the RC papers of the inkjet printing. I like the Ilford Gold Fiber SIlk which is a "baryta" paper fashioned after the traditional fiber baryta papers that apugers will be familiar with. Canson's Baryta Photographique is very similar. They are not exactly the same as the fiber based silver gelatine but as close as can be expected. They have a slight tooth that makes the glare not so distracting.

For matte, my favorite has been the Canson Rag Photographique. Probably best combination of texture, tone and Dmax and price that I found in my search earlier on. I have samples a few others since then but found no reason to switch.

For glossy I really like the Silk Baryta from Hannamuhle... I just finished a very nice project... It is very good for Black and White and it is quite beautiful with colour images.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

I have been very dissatisfied with darkroom FB paper changes. Perhaps due to removal of cadmium, new ones just don't look as nice as those from past decades. Also, matte darkroom papers were never able to produce a real black, and in recent years the glossy ones have become too glossy. Reportedly this is because the single remaining supplier (Schoeller) only offers one baryta base material to photo manufacturers. Whatever the cause, especially for prints not dry mounted and displayed under strictly controlled lighting conditions, I find their high surface reflectivity to be a deal breaker.

After taking the plunge into inkjet printing earlier this year with an Epson P600, I went through numerous papers from many manufacturers. In the course of those trials, Dick Phillips (he of camera design/manufacturing fame) and I exchanged many of our prints. One thing we discovered is that results differ greatly, on any given paper, depending on whether one uses a Canon (as Dick does) or Epson printer. Dye vs. pigment inks can lead to totally different looks.

My conclusion was that, for Epson inks, Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth is damn near perfect. It has no distracting surface reflections, is as sharp as any glossy darkroom paper ever was and, although I don't have a reflection densitometer to validate this observation, renders deep blacks extremely well. Those lowest values might be close to density 2.0. Dick Phillips is still searching to find a replacement for the now-discontinued Red River San Gabriel V1.0 he so liked. He's more inclined toward a semi-gloss surface, and hasn't yet discovered one that pleases him.

I've no confidence in so-called soft proofing approaches. The many inkjet papers I've tried all required multiple iterations to optimize results; one could not rely on how images appeared on screen. However, with the Hahnemuhle-supplied profile selected and Epson color management turned off, only contrast/brightness adjustment were necessary for me.

 

[nmp]

For glossy I really like the Silk Baryta from Hannamuhle... I just finished a very nice project... It is very good for Black and White and it is quite beautiful with colour images.

I have a sample pack from Hahnemuhle. May be one of these days I will try them out. They are a bit more expensive than the Cansons and Ilfords so I have been hesitant.

 

[Bob Carnie]

I have a sample pack from Hahnemuhle. May be one of these days I will try them out. They are a bit more expensive than the Cansons and Ilfords so I have been hesitant.

In North America I find this range of paper very available and stocked by many vendors, and they are very helpful to us little people.

 

[RalphLambrecht]

I have been very dissatisfied with darkroom FB paper changes. Perhaps due to removal of cadmium, new ones just don't look as nice as those from past decades. Also, matte darkroom papers were never able to produce a real black, and in recent years the glossy ones have become too glossy. Reportedly this is because the single remaining supplier (Schoeller) only offers one baryta base material to photo manufacturers. Whatever the cause, especially for prints not dry mounted and displayed under strictly controlled lighting conditions, I find their high surface reflectivity to be a deal breaker.

After taking the plunge into inkjet printing earlier this year with an Epson P600, I went through numerous papers from many manufacturers. In the course of those trials, Dick Phillips (he of camera design/manufacturing fame) and I exchanged many of our prints. One thing we discovered is that results differ greatly, on any given paper, depending on whether one uses a Canon (as Dick does) or Epson printer. Dye vs. pigment inks can lead to totally different looks.

My conclusion was that, for Epson inks, Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth is damn near perfect. It has no distracting surface reflections, is as sharp as any glossy darkroom paper ever was and, although I don't have a reflection densitometer to validate this observation, renders deep blacks extremely well. Those lowest values might be close to density 2.0. Dick Phillips is still searching to find a replacement for the now-discontinued Red River San Gabriel V1.0 he so liked. He's more inclined toward a semi-gloss surface, and hasn't yet discovered one that pleases him.

I've no confidence in so-called soft proofing approaches. The many inkjet papers I've tried all required multiple iterations to optimize results; one could not rely on how images appeared on screen. However, with the Hahnemuhle-supplied profile selected and Epson color management turned off, only contrast/brightness adjustment were necessary for me.

I will most certainly try that paper asap.

 

[jeffreyg]

Everyone has their favorite and I'm not sure every printer prints the same tones on a given paper. There are more profiles than I can count but with my Epson 3880 and the standard Epson inks and settings I am getting beautiful results with Hahnemuhle Baryata PhotoRag 100% cotton (glossy) paper. It is not too glossy and looks like silver gelatin glossy paper air dried. It has a very slight luster type surface. After some experimenting I have found a 60% sepia 2 layer and a 30% brown tone layer(PhotoKit plugin) over my home made Delta 400 curve gives me a very slightly warm-neutral mid tone tonality print with deep rich blacks. It works well with either scanned negatives or digital capture.

http://www.jeffreyglasser.com/

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...Dick Phillips (he of camera design/manufacturing fame) and I exchanged many of our prints. One thing we discovered is that results differ greatly, on any given paper, depending on whether one uses a Canon (as Dick does) or Epson printer. Dye vs. pigment inks can lead to totally different looks...

Yesterday some more of Dick's prints arrived, including a couple on Hahnemuhle FineArt Baryta Satin. This led me to do additional research into Canon printers and post this update.

Some Canon printers use dye inks and others employ pigmented inks, which I didn't know previously. Dick's Pro-100 is a dye-based machine. I'd tried Hahnemuhle FineArt Baryta Satin in my Epson P600 and been thoroughly displeased by the rather high level of surface reflection. The dye prints on that paper Dick sent are absolutely wonderful, with low sheen and high sharpness. Holding them next to my very shiny pigment prints on the same paper is amazing; it's hard to believe how different their surfaces appear.

It seems that Canon 13x19 printers (PRO-10 and PRO-100) use dye-based inks, while cartridges in the larger 17x22 PRO-1000 are pigment-based. If I were printing with a Canon dye-ink machine, I'd definitely use Hahnemuhle FineArt Baryta Satin. For Epson printers and the larger Canon, my recommendation of Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth stands.

 

[jim10219]

I'll use matte paper for graphic design work, but I don't think photos ever look right on them. Not digital print photos anyway. For alternative process stuff, that's obviously the way to go. As with anything, what you're printing will determine what kind of paper is best. Sometimes metallic paper can look really nice. Sometimes it's just distracting. Sometimes glossy paper is the ticket. Sometimes glossy paper is gaudy. Sometimes satin paper does the trick. Sometimes it doesn't pop right.

About as close as I'll come to using matte paper for photographs (other than alternative process) is satin or luster. Sihl makes a good, cheap(ish), satin paper that doesn't have much visible texture to it. It's their Maranello Photo Satin Paper (3620). That's about as matte as I'll go for a photo. I've tried to like true matte papers, because I hate the glare, but they always look flat and muted to me. Besides, glare is less of a problem once you hang a photo on a wall than it is in your hand.

 

[nmp]

Pigments particles are are surrounded by an encapsulating resin that imparts them higher gloss than paper's native gloss. This gives rise to what they call "gloss differential" which is the difference between the gloss of the pigment droplet and the surrounding paper. It can be very distracting in some areas of the image, particularly when viewed at oblique angles. The dye printers do not have this problem because the dye ink is solvent based and on evaporation it leaves only the dye molecules, taking on the gloss of the underlying paper gloss. Pigment-based Canon Pro-1000 comes with a clear-coat ink called Chroma Optimizer that they lay on the glossy paper on top of the the pigment to equalize the reflections over areas of varying coverage. Epson has a non-pigmented ink as well called the Gloss Optimizer that functions similarly to counter the gloss differential. This is available only in their HG2 ink-set which is in P400, but not in P600 or the P800.

 

[Sal Santamaura]

...Pigment-based Canon Pro-1000 comes with a clear-coat ink called Chroma Optimizer that they lay on the glossy paper on top of the the pigment to equalize the reflections over areas of varying coverage. Epson has a non-pigmented ink as well called the Gloss Optimizer that functions similarly to counter the gloss differential. This is available only in their HG2 ink-set which is in P400, but not in P600 or the P800.

Thanks for the education. Do these clear / non-pigmented inks counter gloss differential by making high value areas as shiny as low values or do they reduce gloss toward the paper's natural low level, i.e. dull everything? Using my P600, even areas close to paper white are shiny with Hahnemuhle FineArt Baryta Satin.