True ISO rating of Tri-x 400 ?

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gregmacc

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Hi all ... I'm a film beginner and I've just started working in my own darkroom. I've been shooting HP5 and Tri-X at 400 ISO, developing in ID11, and printing in Ilford chemicals, all per the standard Ilford instructions (film developing time for Tri-X adjusted per Ilford's ID11 instructions). I'm happy with my results with HP5 but even the best Tri-X proof sheets and prints look a bit dull and flat. Same camera, lens, processing/printing chemicals and technique.
... Could it be that the Tri-X needs to be rated a bit lower when I'm shooting? ... Maybe 250 or 300?
Cheers
Greg
 

mikebarger

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Could be you need a little more development. Did you test for film speed and development times for your equipment and process?

Mike
 

moouers

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I shoot my Tri-X at 400 ISO and have no problem with it. I know I processed the following shot in D-76, I just can't remember in what dilution. I'm thinking 1:1? Maybe? I need a better system of keeping track of information!

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gregmacc

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Could be you need a little more development. Did you test for film speed and development times for your equipment and process?

Mike

Thanks for your reply mike ... No ... I've done no testing ... Wouldn't really know how ... I've just followed the Ilford instructions and been very happy with the results shooting HP5 at 400 ISO. Not so with the Tri-X. Is the "testing" relatively straight forward? Any suggestions as to how to go about it?
Cheers and thanks again
Greg
 

George Collier

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As Mike suggests, development controls contrast, not exposure, generally. If you have enough detail in the shadow (lighter areas on the negative) areas, then your exposure is ok. Your flatness may be due to highlight areas (heavy on the negative, and largely controlled by development) not having sufficient density, or separation from the shadows.
You might just try another 20 - 25% more development time, or more agitation (this is a big subject - search the forum for related threads - have a beer handy for a good read).
Having said that, many folks, including myself, rate Tri-x 400 at 200 - 250.
 

df cardwell

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If you use an extremely contrasty print developer, like Dektol, your EI tends to be lower (200-250)
because the sufficient development time to produce shadows and midtones adequate for EI 400 cannot be produced,
without driving the highlights beyond the scale of most papers developed in Dektol.

Yet, a moderate print developer, like LPD, or D52, or the common blend of Selectol (120) and Dektol (D72) makes EI 400 a common and predictable way to work.
 

removed account4

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hi greg

i would suggest shooting your tri x but bracketing your exposures.
expose one fame as metered, one 1 fstop over and 1 fstop under.
develop as you are accustomed and see which exposure look the best.
you can be more exact by bracketing by half or third stops, just be consistent.

have fun!
john
 

Sirius Glass

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I have tried different ISO values for Tri-X 135 and 120 and I keep coming back to using it at box speed, 400.

Was the lighting flat when you shot the roll of Tri-X? If so, on overcasts days open the lens two stops. I found that suggestion in Wildi's Hasselbad book and that works for me.

Steve
 

2F/2F

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There is only one ISO film speed for any film: the one on the box. Changing what you tell your light meter does not change the ISO film speed at all. It just changes exposure in a blanket fashion. It is used as a technique for compensation for each of our own personal deviations from ISO standards. What you set your light meter to is called an exposure index (EI).
 
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gregmacc

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Thanks all for replying ... I would like to standardize with the chemicals I am using presently ... Ambient light conditions during shooting have been variable. ... Ilford quotes 19 mins film development for Tri-x as apposed to 20 min for HP5 (Both at 20 deg C) ... Assuming that my agitation and processing techniques are identical for both films would it be preferable to begin by adding say an extra 4 mins to the Tri-X developing time?
Thanks
 

fschifano

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OK, so I see that you're using ID-11 diluted 1+3 from stock. Is it possible that you have not used enough stock solution? Using a very dilute solution of ID-11 (or D-76 for that matter) does not lessen the requirement for a minimum amount of stock solution. For D-76, which is functionally equivalent to ID-11, I've noticed that 150 ml. of developer is the minimum necessary to insure good development. Using that figure, you need 600 ml. in the tank to do the job. Kodak also recommends adding approximately 10% to their stated development times to compensate for the small volume of developer.
 

df cardwell

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The short answer is to increase development time.

Here's an easy method. Shoot a roll of the same scene,
and average (for you) scene. Every exposure the same.

Cut the film into 3 strips. Process the first at 19 minutes,
the second 25% longer. Make contact prints of this strip,
and process the third strip for a longer or shorter time
depending on the outcome of the second strip.

Good luck, Goldilocks !
 
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gregmacc

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Frank, I have been using 300mls ID11 (1+3) working solution for a single spool in a twin spool tank. This has produced very nice negatives with HP5. I'm assuming the same volume (recommended by Ilford) would be OK for Trix. Maybe I'm wrong.
 

RalphLambrecht

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There is only one ISO film speed for any film: the one on the box. Changing what you tell your light meter does not change the ISO film speed at all. It just changes exposure in a blanket fashion. It is used as a technique for compensation for each of our own personal deviations from ISO standards. What you set your light meter to is called an exposure index (EI).

Amen to that!
 

RalphLambrecht

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...I'm happy with my results with HP5 but even the best Tri-X proof sheets and prints look a bit dull and flat. Same camera, lens, processing/printing chemicals and technique.
... Could it be that the Tri-X needs to be rated a bit lower when I'm shooting? ... Maybe 250 or 300?
Cheers
Greg

How much do you have to increase the paper contrast to make them look OK? That's a rough measure for film contrast increase. If you print looks dull on grade-2 paper but good on grade 3, increase film development by 20% and try again. Leave the exposure unless you see a lack of shadow detail, but try on a test roll to increase exposure in 1/3-stop increments to find your optimal exposure index (EI).

The above is a way to guesstimate. If you want to do it right, conduct a proper film test. In the end, that will take less time and effort than fiddling with too many variables back and forth. If you are interested in doing one, I'm happy to post instructions. It's not too hard.
 
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The speed is 400 to ISO standards. If you want more shadow detail, expose more.

If you are getting too much shadow detail or too little, the meter or metering technique or shutter or lens diaphragm are off. This assumes you are using properly prepared fresh developer and developing to ISO standards. A few developers will give a slight speed increase and fine grain will lower sensitivity. But if you stick t oD76, ID11, HC110, Xtol, box speed is the correct number.

I have tested many a film in the past decades, and the box speed will give proper shadow detail if you do everything else correctly.

For some creative purposes, film can be exposed more or less and development changed to compensate.
 

sgoetzin

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gregmacc said:
Could be you need a little more development. Did you test for film speed and development times for your equipment and process?

Mike

Thanks for your reply mike ... No ... I've done no testing ... Wouldn't really know how ... I've just followed the Ilford instructions and been very happy with the results shooting HP5 at 400 ISO. Not so with the Tri-X. Is the "testing" relatively straight forward? Any suggestions as to how to go about it?
Cheers and thanks again
Greg

A simple test is to shoot the same picture 3 times. ASA setting is 400.
The first at measured speed and aperture (e.g. f8). The second at 1 exposure value EV lower f5.6 and the third at 1 EV higher e.g. f11.
Try to get a scene with blacks and highlights.
Develop the film as you did before. First check the darks on the negatives which tells you which EV is best, the negative with the most detail.
f8 = 400 asa, f5.6 = 200 asa and f11 = 800 asa.
Then check the chosen negative for the highlights and adapt the development if needed.
Hope I was clear enough with my explanations.
Good luck,
Serge
 
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I have tried different ISO values for Tri-X 135 and 120 and I keep coming back to using it at box speed, 400.

Was the lighting flat when you shot the roll of Tri-X? If so, on overcasts days open the lens two stops. I found that suggestion in Wildi's Hasselbad book and that works for me.

Steve
Is this the book you are referring to, or a different edition?
 

RalphLambrecht

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A simple test is to shoot the same picture 3 times. ASA setting is 400.
The first at measured speed and aperture (e.g. f8). The second at 1 exposure value EV lower f5.6 and the third at 1 EV higher e.g. f11.
Try to get a scene with blacks and highlights.
Develop the film as you did before. First check the darks on the negatives which tells you which EV is best, the negative with the most detail.
f8 = 400 asa, f5.6 = 200 asa and f11 = 800 asa.
Then check the chosen negative for the highlights and adapt the development if needed.
Hope I was clear enough with my explanations.
Good luck,
Serge

Will this test not always lead you to the lower speed setting? More exposure = more shadow detail. Why do the test?

I think, you are better off using finer increments (1/3-stop) and increase exposure until you have as much shadow detail as you want, or until you see little gain.

One thing the coarse test above will reveal is that film is much more sensitive to underexposure than it is to overexposure.
 

RalphLambrecht

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I have tried different ISO values for Tri-X 135 and 120 and I keep coming back to using it at box speed, 400.

Was the lighting flat when you shot the roll of Tri-X? If so, on overcasts days open the lens two stops. I found that suggestion in Wildi's Hasselbad book and that works for me.

Steve

Isn't that like shooting it at ASA 100?
 
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Many people tend to confuse film speed with personal shooting preferences with exposure. The link on page two of this thread is a perfect example of this. Most of the time this is fine since it doesn't really affect the quality of the image. After all, the goal is to produce a usable negative and being pragmatic about exposure is good enough and as far as most people want or need to take their understanding. There are people in today's age of digital photography who have never shot film and have no idea what an f/stop is or how it works, yet they are perfectly happy with the quality of the images they produce. Problems and confusion begin to occur when someone wants to learn more about film speed while remaining in the pragmatic camp.

In truth, film speed changes little with changes in processing. For any given developer, there is in essence only a single film speed for processing between around -1 to +2. This is because film speed is not tied to density. While the ISO standard uses a point of density to determine film speed, the standard doesn't address speed theory. It is only a document of instructions for the determination of film speed. If you want to know the whys, you have to look somewhere else. Hint: The fractional gradient method of speed determination has always been regarded as the most accurate method. The fixed density method of the ISO standard is really just a different way to determine the fractional gradient method for normal using a mathematical conversion known as the Delta-X Criterion. Using a fixed density method for anything other than the defined parameters of the standard will result in skewed results (lower than normal contrast will result in underrated speeds and higher than normal contrast will result in overrated film speeds).

Flare plays in important part in film speed. Without the influence of flare, all films would be one stop slower. And as flare is variable in actual shooting situations, it is impossible to ever precisely place the shadow density. While the ISO testing eliminates flare in the testing procedures, a one stop of flare is factored into the final determination.

The point in which film speed is determined (speed point) is not necessarily the target point in which the shadow exposure is supposed to fall.

The idea of "personal" film speed is more about the defining your personal shooting and metering habits. You can't even say that it is about incorporating your equipment into the equation because there are just too many variables for that to accurately happen. Determining the film's actual film speed requires eliminating all the possible variables that can effect the accuracy of the results. That way you can be certain the results are only about the attributes of the film.

So, what is the true speed of a film? It is the ISO speed rating. How you want to rate the film and expose it is up to you and your personal results and tastes, but don't confuse the two.

If anyone is interesting in knowing what film speed really is, the only two nonscientific authors who understand it are Phil Davis and Roger Hicks. Otherwise, you will need to read the scientific papers from the 1940s, 50s, and 60s, or books such as Photographic Materials and Processes by Strobel and The Manual of Photography by Jacobson.
 
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mikebarger

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For me, the real film speed number doesn't make much difference. It's how the film acts with my equipment and development process that counts. The real number is only a spot to start the test.

Mike
 
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