Would the above then lead to HP5+ and Tri-X in the same developer, ID11, at the box speed and for the Ilford times for both films result in this let's say, apparent difference in shadow detail and box speed. I mention ID11 as Ilford gives times for both films at 400 so presumably ( but this is an assumption only) to the same contrast index.
It may make no difference but I could not find any Kodak publication listing both film for D76. Alaris give times only for Kodak films. I mention this only as an explanation why I have used ID11 in my question.
So can I ask that while this discussion proceeds along the specific lines of shadow details and contrast, will no-one else bother to make comment on the rights and wrongs of what KA apparently ignoring times for other than Kodak films. I wish to avoid any chance of it becoming
a KA v Ilford discussion
Thanks
pentaxuser
in my own experience, using the same developer and actually working out development times to produce the same amount of contrast between the various emulsions, HP5 is the faster film by a solid 1/3 to half a stop compared to Tri-X. If you take that into account and adjust your exposure so that each film is developed to ISO contrast and exposed at the speed it has at that contrast, the two emulsions are very difficult to tell apart.
I just want to find out if under the conditions I mention above I will see no difference in the two sets of negatives so other than price there nothing to distinguish the two films.
When it comes to sensitometry (speed, shadow contrast, highlight contrast, exposure scale etc. - all of the things falling under the general "tonality" moniker), you characterize a film, and compare films using:
1. Characteristic ("H&D") curves
2. Spectral sensitivity
Anything else is unreliable at best, involving too many variables and subjective impressions.
Example: If two films have the same ISO speed and spectral sensitivity, if one of them has more shadow contrast than the other, this will be evident by comparing the characteristic curves (the film with lower shadow contrast will have a longer toe). I've attached an illustration of this - two hypothetical films with the same ISO speed, the "red" one having lower contrast in the shadows, but also a lower threshold exposure. In common parlance, the red film would be said to have more latitude against underexposure relative to the blue film. The price you pay for that increased latitude is lower shadow contrast.View attachment 281624
Now there are other concerns that can be addressed. For instance, it looks to me to have been exposed using one of those x-ray sensitometers, which introduces a questionable element in that they do not use daylight balance, but making sure the films were processed to the same average gradient would be the first step in "comparing" films. Also, using a flash to shoot the test subject introduces a possible short term reciprocity situation which may not be consistent between the two films. Testing should be based on the conditions of the general usage of the film.
Was the color chart hand held in the actual tests? Angle of incidence equals the angle of reflectance. The values will be different depending on how it's tilted.
The point is that you can make either sort of look like the other to a fairly large extent in terms of much of the characteristic curve if you pay attention to the small speed differences and develop them to deliver matching average gradients (though you'll have a hard time of it with HC-110 - which can deliver all sorts of atypical curve shape results between materials that can be much more readily normalised with D-76/ Xtol types of developer - but HC-110 is/ was not the reference developer at the design stage of most of the materials used for regular photography - though for some graphic arts materials it probably was) but there are quite a few differences that are visually perceivable, if not specifically identifiable to your heavily culturally conditioned ideas of Tri-X or HP5+.
Stephen, if you’re referring to my graph, it’s not a fixed density criterion. The two hypothetical films would have the same ISO speed rating (they both satisfy the ISO criteria in the same way). It was meant to illustrate how two films of = speed can render shadows differently.
Very valid concerns. Thanks again Stephen, I've been reading this whole week several posts of yours on sensitometry and immensely benefitted by them. I hope you and Bill can make the selected papers on sensitometry available again.
Ah. And here's the crux for me personally, something that you, Drew, and a few others are overlooking:
How, as an amateur just starting out developing film, do I know all that?
I grok that knowing the response curves and the characteristics allows you to make these determinations and adjustments-- but you have to have a fair level of knowledge to get there. Me smart guy with computers-- chemical reactions with silver halide make Ogg brain hurt.
The equivalent would be me expecting you to know the optimum block size, cache size and file system to use to get the maximum performance out of any given type of application before I'd admit you knew what you were doing with Lightroom (or equivalent application).
I'm not sure Greg's videos aren't targeted at you, Drew, or a few others-- they're targeted at the guy who knows how to spell two, maybe three developers, thinks pyro is something that sets your film on fire (possibly for carbon printing), and rodinal might be about sculpture.
They have the same delta D. That was the whole point. Same delta D (0.8) over the 1.3 log H interval from the speed point m. Same ISO speed rating, but different curve shape.
Sorry for the confusion. It was an illustrative example in response to pentaxuser’s question about how two films of the same speed might potentially elicit user characterizations such as one film having either better or muddier shadow separations/contrast than another, all other things being equal.
The point is that you can make either sort of look like the other to a fairly large extent in terms of much of the characteristic curve if you pay attention to the small speed differences and develop them to deliver matching average gradients
your heavily culturally conditioned ideas of Tri-X or HP5+.
Kodak has a few very simple primers on this (how to read and interpret curves, and the characteristics of films). In my opinion this sort of basic understanding is a pre-requisite to discussing any sort of test or comparison by Greg or anyone else.
It doesn’t require much beyond that.
I would also like to address one of your earlier remarks about objections to tests of graininess being largely matters of nit-picking for more decimal places of precision. None of this (besides Drew’s stuff) has anything to do with adding more decimal places. It’s about directionality. If you draw a subjective conclusion that is directionally at odds with proven photographic science/theory, and you know there are several places in the test where things can go wonky on you, the first thing to do is check your results, even if you have zero trust in the statements made by Kodak or Ilford.
This book: https://tinyurl.com/y27v9asp ?An excellent book on testing for resolution and grain is Image Clarity. I don't remember the author.
So using ID11 and the same Ilford times for both film what changes to film speed and development time do you believe you'd need to make to one of the films to get it to match the other?
This book: https://tinyurl.com/y27v9asp ?
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