Tri-X + R09 (Rodinal)

RoboRepublic · Oct 23, 2020

Hi folks, I recently acquired a bottle of Rodinal that I wanted to try out, I developed my 120 roll at 20C @ 14 minutes, with agitation every three minutes in 1+50 (20ml to 980ml for my 2 reel tank, only one reel loaded with film)

I ended up getting some useable, but thick, negatives. They were almost opaque when wound up on the reel and it takes a strong light to get the details out. It almost looks like the baselayer wasn't turned opaque from the developer process.

Any ideas on what happened here? I think they are overdeveloped, but the fact that the baselayer is so opaque, gives me pause. The R09 is quite old, the camera store didn't even know when they got the stock.
Thanks for the help!

Michel Hardy-Vallée · Oct 23, 2020

Old developer is always a risk, despite the belief that Rodinal is eternal. The density of your base layer looks like chemical fog, which is typically avoided by the restrainer component of a developer (ex: potassium bromide). It looks too uniform to be caused by light (but check your camera/darkroom for leaks while you're there).

A developer is a balance: developing agents want to convert everything to silver, but restrainer tells them to stick to properly exposed grains. So if time/heat has adversely affected some chemicals, then your developer is out of whack.

I say drain it, buy some fresh Adox Rodinal/Adonal, and have more fun.

relistan · Oct 23, 2020

The sort of "double edge" on the top of the two visible frames leads me to believe this is a light leak. Look in the space between the frames and you will see what I mean.

I seriously doubt it's the developer. I have a half full bottle of Adonal from 2010 that still develops perfectly well.

miha · Oct 23, 2020

What about the film... expired?

Saganich · Oct 23, 2020

Maybe all three.

RoboRepublic · Oct 23, 2020

miha said:
What about the film... expired?

The film is fairly fresh, expires 2021.

RoboRepublic · Oct 23, 2020

relistan said:
The sort of "double edge" on the top of the two visible frames leads me to believe this is a light leak. Look in the space between the frames and you will see what I mean.

I seriously doubt it's the developer. I have a half full bottle of Adonal from 2010 that still develops perfectly well.

That double edge is interesting, if it were a light leak, would it be so consistent?

As for developer turned funky- what color, and I know this is not scientific, is rodinal when mixed with water? I noticed the developer went from light orange / peach to steel grey while I was waiting for it to reach temp.

Arvee · Oct 23, 2020

"...I developed my 120 roll at 20C @ 14 minutes, with agitation every three minutes in 1+50 (20ml to 980ml for my 2 reel tank, only one reel loaded with film)."

What tank are you using? My 2 reel tanks only hold 480/600 ml for steel/plastic respectively. Yours holds a liter? if you used 20 ml in 480 ml h2o, that's 1+25 which only needs 7 minutes.

RoboRepublic · Oct 23, 2020

Patterson 3 reel, sorry, its a 2 reel for 120, and 3 for 135

Arvee · Oct 23, 2020

If the mix proportions are correct and the temp is measured accurately then it's not the developer. Another look at the neg in the first post looks fogged to me but that could just be the photo. Unexposed 120 film/rebate edges should not appear that dark; it is much clearer than unexposed 35mm rebate edges.

R.Gould · Oct 23, 2020

Film looks fogged to me, it doesn't look like a problem with the developer but a film problem, the whole of the film is evenly fogged, leader, between frames and edges, If you try Rodinal again, don't worry about the colour of the developer, as it ages Rodinal can turn to an almost tar like look, also, next time try inversion for first minute then 2 inversion's every 30 seconds, also, for one reel in a two or 3 reel tank you only need 500 ml of developer, that is 10 developer to 490 water, although I prefer to use 600 ml of solution, just make sure that you put the 2 or 3 reels in the tank otherwise you can get the reels slipping up the centre colum,

pentaxuser · Oct 23, 2020

RoboRepublic said:
As for developer turned funky- what color, and I know this is not scientific, is rodinal when mixed with water? I noticed the developer went from light orange / peach to steel grey while I was waiting for it to reach temp.

My understanding of steel grey is that this will be a gunmetal grey or a kind of grey with a hint of blue. This sounds strange in the sense that I cannot recall anyone else commenting on this kind of colour change in Rodinal while it sits during a temperature rise. What temp did it start at and end at?

pentaxuser

removedacct1 · Oct 23, 2020

RoboRepublic said:
I noticed the developer went from light orange / peach to steel grey while I was waiting for it to reach temp.

I have never, EVER seen Rodinal change color after mixing it with water, before pouring it in the developing tank. I suspect one of two things happened here: either the Rodinal was VERY old and compromised, or there was some contaminant in the water you used. Your original post shows an unusually dense fog base on the film. As someone else suggested, perhaps the restrainer component wasn't functioning properly. Are there any solids in the Rodinal bottle that have come out of solution?

Regardless, if you know for a fact that the Rodinal/R-09 you bought was ancient inventory, then throw it out and get a fresh bottle. The original Agfa Rodinal seems to have a shelf life of many decades, but the newer R-09 variant does not last much more than 2 years before degrading.

RoboRepublic · Oct 23, 2020

It seems that, some how, despite two rinses, the container was some how contaminated. I shot a roll of delta 400, cut it in half, developed half in adox rodinal (another oldie bottle I picked up, from 2017), and half in r09 (the suspected bad batch) and I got the attached result (from the r09 trial)

The splotches, I attribute to insufficient agitation, as there was a few moments when I lost track of the time and forgot to invert.

@pentaxuser The temperature rise was from about 59 to 68 F

R.Gould · Oct 24, 2020

paulbarden said:
I have never, EVER seen Rodinal change color after mixing it with water, before pouring it in the developing tank. I suspect one of two things happened here: either the Rodinal was VERY old and compromised, or there was some contaminant in the water you used. Your original post shows an unusually dense fog base on the film. As someone else suggested, perhaps the restrainer component wasn't functioning properly. Are there any solids in the Rodinal bottle that have come out of solution?

Regardless, if you know for a fact that the Rodinal/R-09 you bought was ancient inventory, then throw it out and get a fresh bottle. The original Agfa Rodinal seems to have a shelf life of many decades, but the newer R-09 variant does not last much more than 2 years before degrading.

In my 50+ years of using Rodinal the only time's I have seen Rodinal change colour after mixing is if thge container it was mixed in had not been properly cleaned after mixing another chemical such as another developer either film or paper, and the Rodinal was contaimated with the previos chemical, then the rodinal turns grey, other than that I have never seen it change colour after mixing, other than when developing Foma 120, then it is green when poured out, but that is due to the AH layer, it should normally when diluted be either clear when the Rodinal is fresh, or a slightly darker sort of amber colour

pentaxuser · Oct 24, 2020

Thanks for the reply on temp range RoboRepublic. I was just curious about what that might have done but doubting if it had any effect and now the good news is that you have found the cause

pentaxuser

RalphLambrecht · Oct 24, 2020

R.Gould said:
Film looks fogged to me, it doesn't look like a problem with the developer but a film problem, the whole of the film is evenly fogged, leader, between frames and edges, If you try Rodinal again, don't worry about the colour of the developer, as it ages Rodinal can turn to an almost tar like look, also, next time try inversion for first minute then 2 inversion's every 30 seconds, also, for one reel in a two or 3 reel tank you only need 500 ml of developer, that is 10 developer to 490 water, although I prefer to use 600 ml of solution, just make sure that you put the 2 or 3 reels in the tank otherwise you can get the reels slipping up the centre colum,

+1 almost looks to me like some one had the red light on while loading the film.

R.Gould · Oct 24, 2020

RoboRepublic said:
It seems that, some how, despite two rinses, the container was some how contaminated. I shot a roll of delta 400, cut it in half, developed half in adox rodinal (another oldie bottle I picked up, from 2017), and half in r09 (the suspected bad batch) and I got the attached result (from the r09 trial)

The splotches, I attribute to insufficient agitation, as there was a few moments when I lost track of the time and forgot to invert.

@pentaxuser The temperature rise was from about 59 to 68 F

What did you use to measure the ro9 concentrate in? it can be contaminated by traces of the previous RO9 concentrate, I have had tis happen to me with Rodinal/ro9 over the years, but I always picked it up before using it to develop a film,, although that would not give the result in your first post, Film must have been fogged, and forgetting the time and missing an inversion cycle would not give blotches, I developed a film this morning, 120 Fomapan, and completely missed an inversion cycle due to talking to my Better half, no blotches,

RoboRepublic · Oct 24, 2020

RalphLambrecht said:
+1 almost looks to me like some one had the red light on while loading the film.

Film was loaded in a dark bag, wish I had the space for a red light lit room . This is why I think there's something with the chemistry- a flash of light inside a bag would be fairly directional and not perfectly even.

@R.Gould I've attached a picture of the color change, I didn't realize I had taken. The previous chemical inside the container, if I remember correctly was ilfosol 3. The second picture is the peach color that it starts out with while I measure out the 1+50 ratio, which I believe is normal, but id like to subject to your and others confirmation

R.Gould · Oct 24, 2020

That first picture is Rodinal/RO9 contamitioned by another chemical, It doesn't take much, RO9/rodsinal is very fussy only in that you need to be careful about cleaning your mixing jug, I always make sure that I rinse the jug just before mixing, and also the small 100ml container that I measure the 10 ml concentrate in,amd yes, the second picture is the way Rodinal should look like after mixing before developing the film, as far as the dilution it is up to you, either 1/25 or 1/50, personally I prefer 1/50 for the Fomapan that I use, but some films, especialy Ilford HP5+ will not work in 1/50 and needs 1/25, most Kodak will develop well in 1/50,
but for some reason the first negative you showed in your opening post was fogged, I am certain of that,
as to how it was fogged I can't say, but only fogging will give that sort of negative, It could be that the film was not wound tightly, or the film was taken out of the camera in the full sun, it doesn't take much, glad you got the second film right
Richard

RoboRepublic · Oct 24, 2020

Richard, thanks for your comments- I'm going to keep an eye on the last frame of my pentax 67 to see if they continue to exhibt this sort of fogging. What am I to look for that tells you, with good certainty that that frame is fogged?
The shot was taken backlit with a large amount of flare behind my dog (I was trying to see if I could control the flare in a meaningful way on the 105). The film was, possibly foolishly, unloaded under the shade of some trees from the sun at around 340pm EDT.

R.Gould · Oct 24, 2020

If you look at the frame the whole frame, edges, spaces between frame, all the same so it must have been exposed to light, not strong light as if you unrolled it in daylight, but very very low light, It doesn't take much which is why I speculated it could be not rolled tight on the spool, or unloaded in full sun, I had this happen to me recently, it turned out to be a very slight light leak in my window blackout, took me sitting in the dark for 1/2 hour to find it, not enough to fog paper, but enough to fog film when loading into my reel, that is why Ralph suggested it looked like the film was loaded with the safelight on,it takes very little. unloading the film in shade, even the shade from your body, helps, backlight would not csuse this effect, I have only ever seen this in fogged film, It could even be just one of those things that happen, you get that sometimes with 120,, may not happen again, may happen again, it could be that the back was not closed properly (I have done that), could be that the camera seals need checking,
Richard

NB23 · Oct 24, 2020

I’ve had these thick looking HP5 negatives in the past, always happened with rodinal. I guess rodinal really cooks things. The printed images look fine, though.

R.Gould · Oct 25, 2020

NB23 said:
I’ve had these thick looking HP5 negatives in the past, always happened with rodinal. I guess rodinal really cooks things. The printed images look fine, though.

I would never develop HP5+in rodinal,for some reason it simply does not work, Rodinal and HP5+ is a combination from hell, I had to almost double the developing time suggested to get anything at all, and as for using 1/50, forget it, it is one of the very very few films that won't develop well in Rodinal,

relistan · Oct 26, 2020

R.Gould said:
I would never develop HP5+in rodinal,for some reason it simply does not work, Rodinal and HP5+ is a combination from hell, I had to almost double the developing time suggested to get anything at all, and as for using 1/50, forget it, it is one of the very very few films that won't develop well in Rodinal,

It works great in Rodinal 1+100 stand. But agreed, for regular Rodinal use at 1+25 or 1+50 with normal development, it's not good.

Tri-X + R09 (Rodinal)

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