Tri-X in Fujidol-E or Microfine?

[mhelminski]

I recently moved to Japan, and am about to start developing my own B&W again. I thought I'd experiment with some of the Japanese developers instead of simply picking up a pack of XTOL or D76 (which was my standard Tri-X developer in the past). Does anyone have any experience with Tri-X in Fujidol-E or Fuji Microfine? I understand Fujidol-E contains isoascorbic acid, making it potentially similar to XTOL. And I figure I can do a little guesswork on the estimating the development times myself, but I was curious if anyone has any advice to offer before I get started. I'll be using both 400TX (35mm)and 320TXP (120).

Thanks in advance!

 

[momonga]

Microfine seems to be very similar to Perceptol or Microdol-X, ie, an extremely fine grain developer. Fuji claims there is less film speed loss with Microfine than with other fine grain developers. Developing times tend to be slightly less than the other the Kodak and Ilford products.

Fujidol-E seems to be similar to XTOL: uses phenidone and ascorbic acid, pH = 8.2. However, there is no film speed gain claimed with Fujidol-E. In fact one reviewer noted a 1/3 stop loss compared to D76 with Tri-X Pan or Neopan 400 ('shashin kogyo', April 2000). This may be because some older, traditional emulsions don't seem to respond as well to low pH, ascorbic acid developers as modern tabular grain films (that's just my guess, there was no speed loss with Neopan 1600 or Neopan 100, aka Delta 100). OTOH, the film curves for Tri-X in D76 and Fujidol-E seem identifical, and the developing times were identical: 7 minutes, 20C, in either developer undiluted gives a gamma of 0.50/.51, Fujidol-E EI = 400, D76 EI = 500. BTW, the Tri-X used for the test was not, I suppose, the current version.

Unfortunately, I've never been able to find the second part of the article in which differences of sharpness and granularity were compared. I have used Fujidol-E quite a lot, mostly with 400TMax, and it does seem to give noticeably finer grain than D76, with no loss of film speed.

I believe the original Fujidol was a PQ formula designed to mimic D76 so that it could be used in place of the Kodak developer with virtually the same developing times for Tri-X Pan. The new Fujidol-E continues this, developing times for Tri-X Pan and Neopan 400 being the same or very close to D76. But they can be very different for other films.

So, your current D76 processing times for Tri-X Pan should be close to what you'll need with Fujidol-E. You'll have to test for Tri-X Pro.

 

[mhelminski]

thank you for the info! I'm going to mix up some Fujidol tonight and try it out on a roll of 400TX.

 

[Ryuji]

Nontabular films develop very nicely in phenidone-ascorbate developer of low pH. For example, Plus-X, Neopan 400, HP5 Plus, Tri-X and all these films develop very nicely in DS-10 at pH of 8.0 and give speed comparable to D-76.

As far as I know none of Fuji developer is photographically same as D-76. Fuji's film developers tend to contain some bromide and this can make visible difference in processing time as well as fog level and toe speed.

 

[momonga]

Regarding Fujidol and Fujidol-E as mimicking D76, there are three articles I was thinking of, all from shashin kogyo, all written by Sakagawa (Sakakawa?) Takeshi in a series called 'darkroom technique', 9/96, 8/98 and 4/00, in which he makes that claim. In fact, that is the basis for his two part article, 'fujidooruE genzou eki to D76 genzou eki' , April 2000. (I have only the first installment). He used both developers with Tri-X Pan, Neopan 400 Presto, Neopan 100 Presto (which apparently was Ilford Delta 100 or a variant of), and Neopan 1600 SuperPresto. The plotted curves for D76 and Fujidol-E for these films look identical, and the developing times for a given gamma are either identical or very close. The EIs for Tri-X Pan and Neopan 400 are 1/3 stop slower with Fujidol-E for the same gamma. There is no loss (or gain) of film speed with Fujidol-E when used with Neopan 100 Presto or Neopan 1600 for a given gamma.

The second part discusses differences in granularity, resolution, perceived sharpness, push processing results, etc, but unfortunately I've never been able to find that issue. However, his conclusions for part one were that, in terms of tonality, gamma and film speed, the two developers are essentially identical.

I'm not defending or arguing Sakagawa's tests, observations and conclusions. I'm just reporting them, passing them on as possibly useful information. 'shashin kogyo' is clearly not a technical journal and I don't know what sort of review they give articles before approving them. But assuming he has not faked his data (and that is a big assumption), he makes a good case that Fujidol-E is an ascorbic acid-phenidone version of D76.

As for non-tabular grain films and low pH XTOL type developers, I was extrapolating from my experience with APX100. I should not have said anything.

 

[kunihiko]

Fujidol-E is an ascorbic acid-phenidone version of D76.

It is, at least for Tri-X, Neopan 400 Presto and 1600 S Presto in stock solution. When diluted, it is not.
It also depends on the emulsion, see Neopan acros for an example.

 

[kunihiko]

BTW: Welcome to Japan !

Where are you located ?
We have some APUGer here in Japan. As far as I know, Wakayama, Osaka, Niigata, Kanagawa, Ibaragi and Tokyo.

 

[mhelminski]

Thank you, Kunihiko! I'm currently living in Nagoya.

I tried my first roll of Tri-X in the stock solution. Came out pretty well, maybe a little thin, but nothing unworkable. I'll be experimenting more, probably shooting at 320 and extending my initial developing time just a little. But will also try Microfine. And eventually XTOL as well.

By the way, what's your favorite developer for Acros?

 

[Ryuji]

The plotted curves for D76 and Fujidol-E for these films look identical, and the developing times for a given gamma are either identical or very close.

If the original author argued that Fujidol E is a phenidone-ascorbate version of D-76, I would say that's a very amateurish argument.

 

[momonga]

Ryuji, the author in question (Sakagawa Takeshi) does say just that, not once but in several articles: Fujidol is a PQ D-76, Fujidol-E a PA D-76. But his audience in shashin kogyo is not really professional, and in terms of results (not formula) it doesn't seem to be an unreasonable description. Fujidol-E gives D-76 like results, with D-76 like times. With finer grain. However, I suppose to call it a 'D-76 type' is an overstatement. OTOH, some call Microphen a PQ D-76.

I hope 'mhelminski' will occasionally post his findings with Fujidol-E. I am curious how it compares to XTOL. I found it gave noticeably finer grain with Delta 100 and TMax400, with perhaps a small loss of sharpness, compared to D-76. Always used both developers 1+3. I stopped using it when I changed to APX100.

 

[mhelminski]

Definitely. I haven't gotten to the XTOL yet, but when I do, I'll let you know what I think.

 

[kunihiko]

Nagoya ! the land of "morning set"!

By the way, what's your favorite developer for Acros?

I just developed 19 rolls of Acros 120 in Fujidol-E yesterday.
EI50 1:1 dilution 24C 8min works fine for me.