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ChristopherCoy

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A few rolls ago I ran across a thread here on 'PUG, and someone mentioned that they shoot Tri-X at 200 and develop in HC-110 for 6 minutes. (900ml water to 18.5ml developer) So I started trying it. I've developed a few rolls now, but most were just shoot at the hip stuff. This is the first roll that I shot in the RB67, and attempted to actually meter for 200 and place the shadows down in zone 3.

I'll have to post them, and then come back around to looking at them in a few days before I can get an idea if I like the results or not. (near straight scans)

RB67R1F1.jpg RB67R1F2.jpg
 

Sirius Glass

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When you are using the Zone System to get details in the shadows, you might has well just use box speed because you will still get the shadow and the highlight details. Why throw out the top end just to have the ISO 200 bragging rights?
 

gone

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Looks very similar to my results w/ stock D76, especially the second shot. 200-250 is where my meter is set to. This can be an issue w/ older cameras when you use filters because you have to shoot stopped down all the time. There's Tri-X in the N70 now and it's set for 250, but the red filter is 2.5 to 3 stops, so 250 becomes 25-50. Fortunately the camera has 1/4000 for a top shutter speed and the lens can be opened up wide even in the sun.
 
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A few rolls ago I ran across a thread here on 'PUG, and someone mentioned that they shoot Tri-X at 200 and develop in HC-110 for 6 minutes. (900ml water to 18.5ml developer) So I started trying it. I've developed a few rolls now, but most were just shoot at the hip stuff. This is the first roll that I shot in the RB67, and attempted to actually meter for 200 and place the shadows down in zone 3.

I'll have to post them, and then come back around to looking at them in a few days before I can get an idea if I like the results or not. (near straight scans)

View attachment 271361 View attachment 271362
Tri-X gives wonderful results IMO in a wide range: EI200 to EI800, depending on light and developer.
At 1600 image degrades, no matter the developer, and Tri-X produces its known harsh pushed look.
At 200 you can develop it with Perceptol: Tri-X with more controlled grain, and 200 is fine for MQ developers too, but 250 and 320 would be perfect for HC-110... In the end there's more relevant exposure variation depending on the way exposure meters are used.
 

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None of us* meter in a scientifically reproduceable way, under controlled conditions.
If you are obtaining negatives you like better with the ISO dial set to 200 on your meter, you have discovered something about your preferences, your meter and/or your technique, not about Tri-X.
Be cautious though - what you think you like better may actually be giving you prints that you like that are only obtained through darkroom or other manipulations.
*Stephen Benskin and Bill Burk being two potential exceptions.
 

Bill Burk

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None of us* meter in a scientifically reproduceable way, under controlled conditions.

*Stephen Benskin and Bill Burk being two potential exceptions.

If you could see the way I take pictures and my contact prints. My exposures are all over the place because I am careless (care-free?) "in the field".

I get very few underexposures though.
 
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ChristopherCoy

ChristopherCoy

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Be cautious though - what you think you like better may actually be giving you prints that you like that are only obtained through darkroom or other manipulations.

I'm not making any concrete decisions until I actually make a print with these, and a few other negatives. I'll be going to the farm to do that soon. I need to make sure that things aren't too contrasty and I have all the detail I need. The negatives look really good though, probably some of the best that I've made, composition and subject matter aside.
 
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ChristopherCoy

ChristopherCoy

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If you could see the way I take pictures and my contact prints. My exposures are all over the place because I am careless (care-free?) "in the field".

I get very few underexposures though.

The weird thing that I'm finding is that I'm getting significantly more over exposures than under. They're only overexposed by a half a stop up to maybe a full stop, but they're still coming out much brighter than stuff in the past. I used to consistently get half a stop to a full stop under using TTL meters. Since I've started using this Sekonic hand held meter, and controlling things myself it's gone completely opposite of what I'm use to. It's definitely a learning curve.
 
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ChristopherCoy

ChristopherCoy

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Are you using reflective or incident readings with the Sekonic?

Reflective. I typically put the spot in the darkest area and take a reading, and then drop it by two stops. In the first photo it was just to the right of the prop, in the second it was just to the left.
 

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I have suggested (probably more than once) that you follow the advice of Dr Martin King ('head' of 'scientific/medical imaging) His recommended method of metering is for a 'white with texture' and opening up 3+1/3 of an f-stop to 'place' that reading in 'zone VIII+1/3', and provide 'Normal' development to retain the 'texture' in the 'highlights and let the 'shadows' fall where they may. (The viewer's eye tends to seek 'information' or 'detail' in the lighter areas of the image more so than detail in the 'low' end). For many years I have carried a piece of white UN-BLEACHED towelling and take a spot meter reading from that (in the same 'light' as the main 'subject'..) and develop the film for 'normal'. You WILL find the results to be within 1/3 of an f-stop of an incident meter reading of the same subject (in the same 'light')

Ken
 
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ChristopherCoy

ChristopherCoy

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It just dawned on me that the thing might be making me question this a little is the fact that I'm creating contrast on the negative, instead of later on in the process. Shooting at box speed and metering everything at middle gray all these years left me with bland images that I had to fix later on. I'm used to seeing my negatives turn out a certain way and this has changed that.
 
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ChristopherCoy

ChristopherCoy

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I have suggested (probably more than once) that you follow Dr Martin King's method of metering for a 'white with texture' and opening up 3+1/3 of an f-stop to 'place' that reading in 'zone VIII+1/3', and provide 'Normal' develop-ment to retain the 'texture' in the 'highlights while letting the 'shadows' fall where they may. (The viewer's eye tends to seek 'information' or 'detail' in the lighter areas of the image more so than detail in the 'low' end. For many years I have carried a piece of white UN-BLEACHED towelling and take a spot meter reading from that (in the same 'light' as the main 'subject'..) and develop the film for YOUR 'normal'. You WILL find the results to be within 1/3 of an f-stop of an incident meter reading of the same subject (in the same 'light')

Ken

That's not a bad idea for more static images where I'm staying in one spot. But if I'm walking around, it may be a little cumbersome. I'll have to try it out and see how it works.
 

Horatio

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Another 'shortcut' it to meter your hand and increase exposure one stop, if you're caucasian.
 

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Always do tests with the equipment you are using. With my Luna Pro and Pentax Digital light meters, I shoot Tri X at 200, in my Nikon F2and Leica M7 cameras I rate it at 400. Both give the exact same exposure for the film.
 
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Bill Burk

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The weird thing that I'm finding is that I'm getting significantly more over exposures than under. They're only overexposed by a half a stop up to maybe a full stop, but they're still coming out much brighter than stuff in the past. I used to consistently get half a stop to a full stop under using TTL meters. Since I've started using this Sekonic hand held meter, and controlling things myself it's gone completely opposite of what I'm use to. It's definitely a learning curve.
Over exposures only look bad on contact prints. I don't know about scanning but with analog printing, this greater exposure leads to better prints for me. So keep at it. You can set the meter on your TTL cameras at 2/3 stop over exposure and walk about in auto. (Or set film to the rated speed and compensation dial to +2/3). I often do that, and then when the sun goes down I know I can easily set compensation dial back to zero (or even -2/3 if I can risk a slight underexposure and am looking for record shots).

There are some subtle effects that make a final print look better in comparison to one with greater exposure, when you expose so perfectly that the shadows land softly on the toe. Ralph Lambrecht has an example pair showing a stairwell and bench by a bright window, the wood trim and surface of the bench look more 'real' in the shot where he used the toe. It looks more like somewhere you can sit, so it enhances the simulation of reality. Since that's the print judgement criterion, the toe is where the best shadow exposures lie. A good reason to work with a long toe film, and a fair criticism of the short toe TMAX films.

To anyone who wants to plan their photography to take advantage of that, I will offer encouragement.
 
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ChristopherCoy

ChristopherCoy

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I'm circling back around to this metering a white cloth idea. If shooting out of doors in full view of the sky, couldn't you technically just meter the white towel once in open light and then shoot all subsequent frames at that setting? Providing that clouds don't block or unblock the sun, or you move into shaded areas etc.

This is very interesting. I think I'm going to go research this Martin King dude and see what he has to say about it.
 

MattKing

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You can pick any textured subject you would like. You just need to figure out which offset to use.
That is why the idea of using the palm of your hand is so attractive.
 
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ChristopherCoy

ChristopherCoy

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What do you mean by offset?
 

MattKing

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What do you mean by offset?
Well, the Dr. Martin King referenced earlier in the thread recommended basing your metering decisions off highlight rendition, and determined that the white, textured subject was 3 1/3 Zones/stops away from Zone 5. If you use your hand, instead of it having an offset of 3 1/3 Zones/stops, it might require an offset of 2.5 Zones/stops instead. It will depend on how light or dark your skin tone is.
The advantage of using your palm is that tone doesn't usually change during the year.
 
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ChristopherCoy

ChristopherCoy

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So all of this work and research only to come back around to the most basic thing of metering my hand in the light I'm in??!? This has to be a cruel joke right? I've heard of the technique before but didn't realize it was just the zone thing in reverse.
 

pentaxuser

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What might have been instructive for all of us would have been to see the same two pictures as prints from negatives shot at 200 and box speed. I'd have expected to see more shadow detail at 200 but there doesn't appear to be any more than I'd expect to see at 400 The scenes are probably not the best kind to see what improvement follows an exposure at EI 200 but while I cannot say that box speed would have produced as good a print I just have a feeling that the difference at 400 would have only been very marginal

At my latitude of about 52 degrees North I'd not want to sacrifice a stop unless it improved my prints appreciably but as PE said if what you are doing is working for you then that is what matters

pentaxuser
 

BrianShaw

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What might have been instructive for all of us would have been to see the same two pictures as prints from negatives shot at 200 and box speed.
... or to hear how different the adjusted exposure was from a general-coverage reflected reading. And, perhaps, to see an image taken with the general-coverage reflected metering at both 200 and 400. Or images taken with incident metering.
 
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