Tray processing technique

So I have just processed 6 sheets of 5X7 - my 3rd sheet film processing session - in trays - and I seem have a serious emulsion damaging habit.

Latest lot have paralell scratches across the negative, about 6 of them where I guess I have slid one over the other - on all bar one negative.

I don't have any other way of processing the sheets at present, so any suggestions on good tray processing technique would be very helpful.

Thanks, Matt.

My first question would be: are you developing emulsion up or emulsion down? Many books say emulsion up, but I and many others have found that emulsion down works better for us. Since you're getting scratches, I would almost recommend trying the opposite of whatever you're doing to see if it works better for you, but my own recommendation is emulsion down. Second, have your trays tilted towards you (i.e. small piece of wood under the far edge of the tray) so that gravity keeps moving the sheets towards you. Lastly, possibly increase the volume of liquid. I use PMK which is so dilute that I couldn't even guess at the cost difference between the 2 liters I use in an 8x10 tray vs less developer, but more liquid should help minimize scratches. Apologies if these suggestions are too elementary. (I've seen some recommendations for using Army Surplus night goggles, but this seems to me to be both overkill - tray developing is a skill that once learned is fairly simple - and I don't quite understand how they work in a pitch dark darkroom.)

Like Pete says - emulsion side down.

But in addition, when agitating, separate the sheets by lifting the entire stack of film, lifting off the top sheet and then placing it at the bottom of the stack (or separating the bottom sheet and moving it to the top if you think that way), but don't actually slide the sheets against each other.

People have been processing film in trays with manual agitation ever since sheet film was invented. Sure, there are better ways today, but the old ways still work. Just be fastidiously careful.

See Steve Simmons article in the free section of the View Camera Magazine website. Steve and I have a very similar technique.

http://www.viewcamera.com/pdf/TRAYPRO.pdf

Matt5791 said:

So I have just processed 6 sheets of 5X7 - my 3rd sheet film processing session - in trays - and I seem have a serious emulsion damaging habit.

Latest lot have paralell scratches across the negative, about 6 of them where I guess I have slid one over the other - on all bar one negative.

I don't have any other way of processing the sheets at present, so any suggestions on good tray processing technique would be very helpful.

Thanks, Matt.

Click to expand...

Matt do a search on this site about "brush development". You'll never scratch another negative and you'll get excellent results. I use it with my ULF negatives. The only downside to it is you can only do one negative at a time unless you have a tray divider.

Matt5791 said:

So I have just processed 6 sheets of 5X7 - my 3rd sheet film processing session - in trays - and I seem have a serious emulsion damaging habit.

Latest lot have paralell scratches across the negative, about 6 of them where I guess I have slid one over the other - on all bar one negative.

I don't have any other way of processing the sheets at present, so any suggestions on good tray processing technique would be very helpful.

Thanks, Matt.

Click to expand...

I started with tanks/hangers and then a JOBO CPP2 and now the only way I process is in trays processing multiple sheets from 4x5 through 12x20 without any problems so I know that it can be done with patience and the utilization of some basics. It is inexpensive, efficient and highly effective. I learned all I know from Paula Chamlee at one of the Michael and Paula seminars in Bucks Country , PA. Here are the basics as she teaches:

Use at least one size larger tray. For 5x7 that is at a minimum 8x10 or larger. Fill the tray 2/3 full of developer. Use nitrile gloves and pre-soak your sheet film at least 2 minutes to 5 minutes in water. Develop and pre soak emulsion side up because you do NOT want your soft emulsion draggin on the bottom of your trays. After taking the stack of sheet film out of the pre-soak, drop the stack in the developed and push down and slowly grab a sheet off of the bottom of the stack and pull it away from the stack out and drop it on the top of the stack and push it down on top gently. Repeat this procedure slowly and methodically rotating the stack 180 degrees every 2 minutes and continue to the end of the processing cycle. Fix in a similar cyclical manner in a tray and inspect the results before you wash to see if you have any processing defects because many times the wash can cause problems as well. I have an acrylic washer that isolates each sheet in the wash to prevent this from happening.

Take your time and learn to trust the ends of your fingers as opposed to grabbing and squeezing to separate the sheets. The thin nitrile cloves are fabulous in this regard as they are cheap and improve your dexterity with the sheet film.

Keep your chin up and your results will improve.

Cheers!

Matt- I'm sure glad you're asking all these questions! You're going to be about 6 months ahead of me on the learning curve........

Tim

If all else fails go single sheet, emulsion up. This is how I do 8X10. Slow but GREAT results.

I know there are people out there who have no trouble doing multiple sheets in a tray, but I was not able to. That was the primary reason I went to tubes. My reasoning was that if was going to have to do one negative at a time, I wanted to be able to do it in the daylight.

cheers

Matt,

A while ago, I started a related thread regarding soft-emulsion film, such as Efke Pl100/25. See this link for reference:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

Since then, I have re-evaluated and refined my technique and now manage to consistently processes Efke film without any scratches. I develop 4 sheets at a time in slightly oversized trays emulsion-side up. I find that it is of utmost importance to avoid any sliding friction among the sheets (except during agitation - that seems to be fine). Before pulling out the bottom sheet, I grab all the other sheets by one corner (grab top right corner with left hand; stretch fingers towards center of sheet so that you can lift the package with your left hand) and lift them up so that there is absolutely no contact to the sheet below. Only then do I carefully pull the bottom sheet out (pull on top right corner with right hand) and put it back on top. After a few times you get a solid routine and can perform the technique almost automatically. It helps to be relaxed and pay attention to what you are doing. Do not let your mind drift too much... Also, examine your trays and if you see any sharp points, corners, etc. smooth them out with fine sand paper.

The technique described above is presumably not new at all and in fact taught in work shops, I presume. However, when I began LF photography, I was using Ilford sheet film, which is much more forgiving and allowed me to develop a comparably sloppy technique. I always just pulled the bottom sheet out without lifting the others first and rarely got scraches.

Again, the critical point is to lift the top sheets so that you can pull out the bottom sheet without any frictional resistance.

Hope that helps, Markus

I do pretty much what Michael Kadillak describes above when tray processing, and it works for me.

Be sure you have enough solution in the tray. Of course "2/3 full" will depend on the height of the tray, so you may find that is more than you really need or not enough, depending on how deep your trays are.

For whatever strange reason, I find I've had fewer problems with stainless trays than with plastic trays, but maybe it was just the particular plastic trays that I had. I like the Columbian trays with the big raised "X" on the bottom.

i usually have one hand shuffling the bottom to top and one hand holding the stack so it doesn't touch the bottom of the tray ...when i pull the film out, i let the filmedge touch the bottom of the tray and it flops onto the top of the pile, and i press it down into the chemicals with my thumb ...
the one thing i always have trouble with is when i stick the film in the tray for the water bath, if i am not extra careful when putting the film in-tray, they stick together and are a real pain in the neck to unstick ...

I have developed up to TEN 8 x 10 EFKE 100 images, NO scratches, emulsion side up - development by inspection. I recommend the SMALLEST tray possible to fit your negs (minimize sliding around). Then when you slide/lift the bottom neg from the bottom of the stack you must have ALL negs aligned. So, when you slide there is no way a corner can scratch a neg.

I also use pyro, which is supposed to harden emulsion.

I always develop emulsion side UP. It works, I have processed 7 x 17 and 8 x 10's - a LOT with no scratches. It can work. It's not that hard.

Remember align negatives in a stack in the developer, then shuffle from the bottom to the top. slowly slide the negative up from the bottom and then place on top of other negatives...don't give up.

Scott Peters said:

I have developed up to TEN 8 x 10 EFKE 100 images, NO scratches, emulsion side up - development by inspection. I recommend the SMALLEST tray possible to fit your negs (minimize sliding around). Then when you slide/lift the bottom neg from the bottom of the stack you must have ALL negs aligned. So, when you slide there is no way a corner can scratch a neg.

I also use pyro, which is supposed to harden emulsion.

I always develop emulsion side UP. It works, I have processed 7 x 17 and 8 x 10's - a LOT with no scratches. It can work. It's not that hard.

Remember align negatives in a stack in the developer, then shuffle from the bottom to the top. slowly slide the negative up from the bottom and then place on top of other negatives...don't give up.

Click to expand...

The whole point in using a larger tray is to have enough room to pull the sheet from the bottom of the stack of sheet film above the bottom of the tray and keep it under the developer so you can pull one sheet above the developer as opposed to pulling the entire stack UP to clear the sheet.

You can keep the sheets from "floating" around by using the samll fingers of your your left hand to keep the stack under control in the bottom of the developing tray while your right hand does the shuffle.

With ULF sheets you need to use both hands to pull and clear a sheet but it works. Just be patient.

I find that the infrared goggles are invaluable in being able to see your sheets in the tray that you are working with as well as gaging highlight density to develop to different density objectives. I do not use the IR light source that comes with the goggles (increased film density on my tests) but use a cheap IR source bounced off of an adjacent wall that works great. I also have a IR light source behind a wall mounted diffusion globe on a foot switch that I can turn on to inspect the film on the base side. The sheet I am inspecting is between myself with the goggles on and the foot switch IR light source so I have strong IR back lighting. Works great.

That said, the goggles are not absolutely necessary, just a convenience I have gotten quite used to using. My approach is to get in and out of the darkroom as efficiently as possible. When I can do N-, N and N+ in one tray at one time life is very good.

Onward!

jnanian said:

i usually have one hand shuffling the bottom to top and one hand holding the stack so it doesn't touch the bottom of the tray ...when i pull the film out, i let the filmedge touch the bottom of the tray and it flops onto the top of the pile, and i press it down into the chemicals with my thumb ...
the one thing i always have trouble with is when i stick the film in the tray for the water bath, if i am not extra careful when putting the film in-tray, they stick together and are a real pain in the neck to unstick ...

Click to expand...

Put some Photo-Flo in the prewet water: problem solved.

Amund said:

Put some Photo-Flo in the prewet water: problem solved.

Click to expand...

good to know!
thanks a million

john

For me it just the numbers. If I develop more than 4 sheets at the same time in 8X10 tray, I will have horrible scratches, less than 4 sheets, I'm ok.

So, start from less and go for more. I don't know when I will be able to handle more than 4 sheets at a time, but as you can see, a lot people on this site can handle the tray development without problem.

Keep practice, you will be fine.

Alex W.

I've had better luck using 8x10 trays with 8x10 film than with 11x14 trays and 8x10 film, for whatever reason. I like the tight space to work in as it keeps everything in order and I don't find shuffling a problem, but I can see how each person would have their own preferences.

As stated above, I also find that it takes more care using J and C and EFKE films to prevent scratching than my main film FP4+, but once you get the 'feel', those films work fine too. I use 1000ml of developer in an 8x10 tray and I too put the emulsion side down. So far, I've done well with this method - no scratches and stunning negatives. The max number of sheets I've developed doing it this way is 8 8x10 sheets at once. mostly due to cost of film than anything else.

For 4x5 I use hangers and tanks since I usually have many more sheets at one time than the larger, and more costly 8x10 film.

- Randy

Thanks very much for all the advice!

I am going to stick at it - maybe I will curb the quantity to max 4 at a time now - I think that 6 might have been pushing it (for me)

You definitely need to feel comfortable with fewer sheets before trying more sheets, but I find that I do better with more sheets, because each sheet gets less handling that way. Also don't forget that more sheets require more solution to float.

When I was developing film every few days and in good practice, I could do 12 sheets, when I was doing it sporatically 6. Ultimately I went over to BTZS tubes as I will explain below.

For a real test of how well you do......expose a few sheets of an even surface to middle grey. Develope the film as you normally do (or throw one of these test sheets in with your normal run). Scan that test sheet at a high resolution (say at least 2400 ppi) with no dust or scratch removal plugin like Digital Ice. Apply a steep curve. Oversharpen the scan to put a good halo on the details. Look at the file closely at 200% enlargement. This workflow will pick up and emphasize any problems with your processing. Many small scartches and abrations which you would not even notice at normal viewing distance in an enlarged traditional print (especially with a diffusion light source) will leap out at you. Even a well processed negative will show many gross defects. This proceedure is very enlightening and why I ultimately gave up tray processing all together in favor of tubes. But you can use this to perfect your tray processing techniques by showing you the direction of scratches etc.

It is not the developer that kills my negs in the trays. It is the fix. In the developer they slide nice and easy. In the fix they stick. If I could get past this I would use trays more often. I think I am going to buy a slosher.

Michael, yes you obviously need a tray large enough to slide the negs from the bottom. However. I have found that an 8 x 10 tray is better for me than 11 x 14 for 8 x 10 negs, as the negs will 'stack' easier and not float around the tray as much. Thus they are easier to align and when you do slide the bottom neg it is in alignment so the corner will not scratch. Thus I think the problem with smaller negs - 4 x 5 and 5 x 7 in large trays....the negs can float around the tray exposing corners to other negs....

I have experienced this with 8 x 10 negs in my seed trays which are much larger 10 x 20 roughly...they tend to float around more and when I go to align them I have to be more careful about scratching.