Tray development: How do I keep from scratching?

[ntenny]

I've begun trying to develop multiple sheets of film at a time in trays, agitating by shuffling, and while the whole process seems to work fine, I keep ending up with nicely developed negatives that are scratched all to hell. I know this is the traditional problem with tray development, and maybe the only possible answer is "keep trying until you get the hang of it", but does anyone have any more specific suggestions?

Thanks

-NT

 

[Monophoto]

I use a slosher. That's a plastic insert that fits into an 11x14 tray and that holds six sheets of 4x5 film, each in its own compartment. The sheets never touch each other. Agitation is by rocking the slosher inside the main tray. Film goes into the slosher dry, and remain in throughout the presoak, development, stop, fix, rinse, hypoclear, wash and PhotoFlo cycles, and finally come out to to hung to dry.

You can buy commercial sloshers. Mine is home made using plexiglas from Home Despot.

 

[ntenny]

I use a slosher.

It's a good idea, but I have pretty significant space limitations. I'm not sure of the exact dimensions of my trays (they're tupperware, not photo trays), but they aren't big enough for more than two 9x12 sheets side by side; hence the preference for a vertical stack.

Bigger trays would require more table space, which I'll put in someday but haven't done yet. I already have to keep the fixer tray in the sink.

-NT

 

[kchittenden]

When you shuffle the negatives, be very careful to not drag the one you are pulling against the edge of the others. In my experience, this most often happens when you get a little bored and get careless.

 

[mjs]

Do you have the emulsion side of the film facing downward? That goes a long way to solving the problem for a lot of folks. How many sheets are you shuffling, and what film? Some Chinese and eastern European film may not be hardened as premium films are, so the emulsion is softer and more prone to scratching. Do you pre-soak the film in water? If your films stick together in the developer and you may be scratching them when separating, try pre-soaking for a couple of minutes. When you slide the bottom sheet of film out of the stack, make sure that the film is floating in solution high enough that you aren't sliding it against the bottom of the tray. If so, use more solution. When you lay the sheet you just pulled from the bottom of the stack onto the top of the stack, try to lay it flat. The natural tendency is to slip one corner into the chemistry and let the film slide in the rest of the way; this almost always lets the corner scratch the back of the top piece of film. Try to teach yourself to just lay the film down flat instead.

Mike

 

[ntenny]

When you slide the bottom sheet of film out of the stack [...]

Wait, you mean I'm supposed to be shuffling bottom to top? I've been going top to bottom, which presumably means I'm incurring scratches either on the sheet I'm moving, as it comes away from the one below it, or on the sheet on the bottom as I slide the "new" one under it.

...and come to think of it, going bottom to top eliminates both those movements, doesn't it? I'm going to have to try this. The presoak is also an idea, though I don't feel like the sheets are tending to stick together.

I'm using Fomapan 100 and Efke 100---they're essentially the only games in town in 9x12, and they're both extremely nice films, but it's true, they're probably more scratch-prone than Kodak/Ilford/Fuji films.

Thanks!

-NT

 

[removed account4]

hi nt

how are you shuffling your film?
how much fluid do you have in your trays?

i use a combination of tupperware containers + trays
one hand is making sure the stack doesn't wander,
the other hand is grabbing sheets off the bottom
putting it on top and pressing down with my thumb.
i don't rotate or cross stack. it seems THAT would lead to trouble.

some tupperware trays have un-smooth bottoms that can scratch film
(like little pieces of plastic that stick up in the middle of the tray or ridges ...)
if you use too little fluid in your trays your film may be scratching against
the bottom of the tray or not able to float enough in the tray when you shuffle
them around. i usually use about 1L +/- of fluid in the 5x7 trays.

 

[eric johnson]

There is a very good step by step description of tray processing in the subscriber's section of the View Camera site. The process described there has a pre-soak and has the emulsion side sown.

eric johnson

 

[David A. Goldfarb]

There's a good description with photos in Ansel Adams' The Negative. Pay attention to what he says about inserting the sheet with a sweeping motion from the front of the tray to the back, so that the center of the sheet contacts the solution first, rather than the edge, which can scratch the next sheet.

I shuffle bottom to top, emulsion side up, to avoid scratching the emulsion on the bottom of the tray. Of course that means having to be careful about placing the sheet from the bottom on top of the stack. I put the sheet into the stack as described above and pat it down with the balls of my fingertips, and I always wear surgical gloves when tray processing film, both to protect my hands and to protect the film from my hands and fingernails.

Having enough solution in the tray solves many problems. Work carefully and deliberately. Start with four sheets and when you can do it reliably, try more.

 

[scootermm]

It could come down to your technique... but one thing to double and triple check is that your trays aren't the ones behind the scratching. Damn near every single tray I've ever used needed to have the inside tray bottom sanded down with some really fine grit sandpaper to smooth out bumps, tiny little plastic pieces that were the causes of mindnumbing scratches.
Sanding has been needed on specialized darkroom/photo trays and store bought plastic tubs I use for my larger sheets of film.

Edit: noticed John mentioned this... so just a repeat.

 

[HMFriedman]

Be careful to pull the bottom sheet straight out, otherwise you'll tend to contact one corner of the sheet above. I've also found Rodinal to be more 'slippery' than other developers, and therefore find it easier to slide the sheets against one another without damage.

 

[gbenaim]

I've begun trying to develop multiple sheets of film at a time in trays, agitating by shuffling, and while the whole process seems to work fine, I keep ending up with nicely developed negatives that are scratched all to hell. I know this is the traditional problem with tray development, and maybe the only possible answer is "keep trying until you get the hang of it", but does anyone have any more specific suggestions?

Thanks

-NT

It won't help to keep trying if you don't know what you're doing wrong. Two easy things to make things easier are to place the film perpendicular to the tray, so that the film's short side is along the tray's long side. This way, the film stack is held along two sides by the tray, and your hands hold the other two. SInce most of the scratching is done by corners sticking out, if you keep a tight stack you're less likely to scratch. The second easy thing is to use hardener in the fix. You may be scratching them in the development stage, but you may also be doing so in the wash (in which tray do you find the little pieces of emulsion?) W hardener you eliminate another common source of scratches.
As to technique, you should use enough fluids all around so that when you put a sheet of film on top of the fluid's surface, it's not even close to touching the stack. Then, to submerge it, use both hands and do it evenly, so there's no chance of it scratching the one directly underneath. Do it w the lights on a couple of times to get the hang of it (w discarded film). I do it emulsion up, but others do the opposite w good results. Good luck.

 

[Kirk Keyes]

I solved it by getting a Jobo.