Topcor lenses for Horseman VH

pkr1979 · Jan 10, 2025

Hi all,

Before getting a Topcor lens for a Horseman VH (not the R, so cams are not an issue) I was wondering if there is anything I should be aware of?

The lenses in particular I am looking at is the 65/7, 105/3.5 and the 180/5.6. Im getting the ones in black lensboards and black paint - and as far as I can understand that means that the 65 will be in a recessed lens board. Also, as far as I know, the 65 and the 180 also covers 4x5 which means they have sufficient coverage for movements for medium format (I will not use them for 4x5). But the 105/3.5 does not cover 4x5 unless Im wrong - but does it still have enough coverage for the movements intended with the Horseman VH? I will be using the camera with 6x7 back which might make a difference.

Also - if there is any difference in quality between the Topcor lenses (all of them - not just the ones mentioned above) please let me know. Or if there are any others I should consider Im happy to take advise. Im primarily considering Topcor lenses though - or at least that price range.

Cheers
Peter

Paul Howell · Jan 10, 2025

There are 2 levels of Topcon lens for the Horseman, Standard and Professional, I bought a 105mm 3.5 professional to use on my baby Speed. It covers all the limited movement of the baby Speed, rise and some shift. I think it would cover the movements of the VR. The super is suppose to cover 4X5 with limited movements. I have shot a dozen or so 2 1/4 X 3 1/4 sheets with it, sharp good contrast. Although I have not tested either lens, I would rate it a bit better than my Mamiya 100 3.5 for my Universal.

ags2mikon · Jan 10, 2025

So here is the image circles at f22: 105mm f3.5 is 125mm. 105mm f5.6 is 160mm. 180mm f5.6 is 140mm. 150mm f5.6 is 160mm. The 180mm is a telephoto design and is a pain to use tilt or swing with.

ic-racer · Jan 10, 2025

I think the 75 is a little gem and very sharp. With the wide angle lenses (65 and 75) it is very important that the front standard is aligned to the film plane. Otherwise one side of the image will be out of focus.

If I were to get a single lens for the VH, it would be the 105mm Super f4.5

beemermark · Jan 10, 2025

I've had a lot of Topcor lenses, none are bad. Big differences is how the shutter is tripped.

pkr1979 · Jan 11, 2025

Thanks fellas!

ags2mikon said:
The 180mm is a telephoto design and is a pain to use tilt or swing with.

Im likely to get the 150 instead of the 180 then.

ic-racer said:
I think the 75 is a little gem and very sharp. With the wide angle lenses (65 and 75) it is very important that the front standard is aligned to the film plane. Otherwise one side of the image will be out of focus.

If I were to get a single lens for the VH, it would be the 105mm Super f4.5

Did you compare the 65 and 75? I figured the slightly larger angle of view of the 65 can come in handy.
Any reason in particular you are opting for the 105/4.5 over the 105/3.5

Cheers
Peter

ic-racer · Jan 11, 2025

My example of the 65mm is not as sharp in the corners as the 75mm. That is OK with me because the 65 has massive coverage for 6x9cm and it is wider. So not unexpected. I have even used the 75mm on 4x5 with it's known vignetting for effect. It is very sharp, right up to the edge of the circle. So, 75mm better for the rangefinder, 65 better for the view camera. Realize that, unlike 8x10, it is somewhat difficult to magnify the far corners with the 65mm/ground glass combination in the field to check for alignment. The alignment in the field is easier to establish with with the detents, which should be set either from the factory or by a competent view camera technician.

If you look at the 105/4.5 and 105/3.5, the 3.5 is smaller and faster (even folds up in the camera) but has less coverage. Again, better for the rangefinder.
The 4.5 is a massive lens, biggest and heaviest of them all. Better on a tripod and it has a large image circle for just about any movement the camera can offer.

Image below 75mm Topcor on Horseman FA (4x5).

pkr1979 · Jan 11, 2025

Thanks @ic-racer - I was actually assuming the 105/3.5 would have enough coverage for the system it was made for. But if I use a 6x7 back instead of a 6x9 that might help (Im not going to use a 6x9 back as they will not fit my enlarger).

Nice photo

ags2mikon · Jan 11, 2025

I have every one of their lenses including some of their first versions. I also have a few of the ER series, they are all very good. The major difference between them is their physical size and coverage / image circle. There was an earlier version 6.5cm f5.6 that was a 6e 4g lens that had a smaller I/C, (120mm) IIRC that was part of the original Horseman Press camera. That was before the 970 came out. I have it also and if you just want a rf focused camera with out a bunch of movement, it is pretty good too.

pkr1979 · Jan 11, 2025

I need the lens to have a image circle large enough to handle the movements possible with the Horseman VH. I will use it as a view camera (never hand held - I'll use my Pentax 67II for that).

HaroldC3P0 · Jan 11, 2025

With regards to the 150mm f5.6, I’ve seen a couple different version of this lens with one looking like it’s for a 4x5 specifically. Of course that one is larger, so does that mean there’s more latitude with movements when using it on a VH (6x9)? Here are the two lenses I’m referring to.

ags2mikon · Jan 11, 2025

IMG7142 is the re-designed 105mm f5.6 that replaced the original 105mm f5.6 and the 105mm f3.5. This new lens uses a 43mm filter instead of a dual thread of 52mm and 62mm. It was set-up for the Horseman ER camera that had built in electric release. It should take a standard 3mm cable release. At least my other ER lenses do. The other one was for the 45 series of Horseman cameras 4x5 IIRC.

pkr1979 · Jan 11, 2025

ags2mikon said:
IMG7142 is the re-designed 105mm f5.6 that replaced the original 105mm f5.6 and the 105mm f3.5. This new lens uses a 43mm filter instead of a dual thread of 52mm and 62mm. It was set-up for the Horseman ER camera that had built in electric release. It should take a standard 3mm cable release. At least my other ER lenses do. The other one was for the 45 series of Horseman cameras 4x5 IIRC.

Those on the images are 150s.

pkr1979 · Jan 11, 2025

HaroldC3P0 said:
With regards to the 150mm f5.6, I’ve seen a couple different version of this lens with one looking like it’s for a 4x5 specifically. Of course that one is larger, so does that mean there’s more latitude with movements when using it on a VH (6x9)? Here are the two lenses I’m referring to.

In principle I would expect any lens (particularly in the normal lens category) made for that system to have a large enough image circle for that systems capabilities. Im not sure if it is the case though. Some of the lenses cover 4x5 and have a larger image circle - but too large to make a difference.

HaroldC3P0 · Jan 11, 2025

Is there a good resource for finding image circle sizes for lenses or is Googling about it?

OP sorry if this is kind of hijacking your thread, I think it’s the same idea you’re trying to figure out.

ic-racer · Jan 11, 2025

The Horseman VH-R pdf has the information, also Horseman 1988 catalog pdf. Both were available on the internetl

abruzzi · Jan 11, 2025

pkr1979 said:
In principle I would expect any lens (particularly in the normal lens category) made for that system to have a large enough image circle for that systems capabilities. Im not sure if it is the case though. Some of the lenses cover 4x5 and have a larger image circle - but too large to make a difference.

Most, if not all, of the VH/VH-R lenses explicitly list their image circle on the lens trim (I'm not sure if the last generation lenses, the "ER" lenses showed this.):

ags2mikon · Jan 11, 2025

My bad. 741 is the 150 for the 4x5 Horseman cameras, like the FA and it is a plasmat (IIRC) type lens and will work on a vh. The other one is a 150 for the ER camera, a 4/3 tessar type. Both of my ER lenses no longer have the image circle on the trim ring. If you are trying to stay compact both the 65mm and 150mm tessar type use 40.5mm filters.

Andrew4x5 · Jan 11, 2025

Hi I’ve attached some specs that I gleaned from various sources. Be aware of changes that occurred over time;
* older lenses have writing inside the barrel (around the front element), whereas newer lenses have the writing on the outside)
* the name changed from Topcor, or super Topcor, and then to horseman super er.
* the older lenses/lensboards have a non-standard cable release socket, whereas the horseman super ers have a standard socket (at the top of a pellet-shaped solenoid).
* earlier lenses can be single-coated, whereas the super er variants are multi coated.
* coverage is generally limited to the horseman cameras, with its movements. So, not many will cover 4x5. However, if you can find an empty lens board (rare?) you can use other lenses. I use a Caltar 210mm f6.3 lens (which covers 4x5) with no problems.
Hope this helps. And enjoy using your Horseman, Andrew

HaroldC3P0 · Jan 11, 2025

Thanks for those that answered above. It's too bad they removed the IC writing on the lenses.

I did some googling and answered my own question. There are Topcor lenses for Large Format Horseman cameras.

https://www.kenko-pi.co.jp/horseman/e/lens_list.pdf

LF Topcor 90mm F5.6 IC: 236mm
LF Topcor 150mm F5.6 IC: 210mm
LF Topcor 180mm F5.6 IC: 168.3mm
LF Topcor 210mm F5.6 IC: 295mm
LF Topcor 300mm F5.6 IC: 420mm

Not sure what f-stop those numbers are for.

But for the Topcon ER lenses.

Horseman ER-1 - Camera-wiki.org - The free camera encyclopedia

camera-wiki.org

ER 65mm f7 IC: 152mm (f22), 120mm (f7)
ER 75mm f5.6 IC: 120mm (f22), 100mm (f5.6)
ER 90mm f5.6 IC: 150mm (f22), 130mm (f5.6)
ER 105mm f5.6 IC: 160mm (f22), 140mm (f5.6)
ER 120mm f5.6 IC: 160mm (f22), 160mm (f5.6)
ER 150mm f5.6 IC: 160mm (f22), 140mm (f5.6)
ER 180mm f5.6 IC: 140mm (f22), 100mm (f5.6)

Looking at the earlier Super/professional lenses, most look to have the same IC as the ER lenses with the exception of the 105mm which the ER has a larger IC. According to the VH-R manual. I also did some searching on ebay and looked at several lenses to confirm.

Also, according to what I have read, you need 150mm IC just to cover 4x5 and 100mm to cover 6x9.

pkr1979 · Jan 12, 2025

HaroldC3P0 said:
Also, according to what I have read, you need 150mm IC just to cover 4x5 and 100mm to cover 6x9.

This is without movements. The question for me is how large the image circle needs to be to cover the capabilities for the VH (6x9 - or in my case 6x7).

HaroldC3P0 · Jan 12, 2025

pkr1979 said:
This is without movements. The question for me is how large the image circle needs to be to cover the capabilities for the VH (6x9 - or in my case 6x7).

Yeah, that is something I’d love to know as well.

ic-racer · Jan 12, 2025

There is no one answer to the question. For example front rise and down tilt on the Horseman could exceed the coverage of many lenses. (See page 43.)

So, if one only looks at front rise and shift, the VH has 30mm shift from center each way and 28mm rise.

One can do some complex math, or just look at these circles to estimate. (page 39 of the 1988 Horseman catalog available on the internet).

pkr1979 · Jan 13, 2025

ic-racer said:
There is no one answer to the question. For example front rise and down tilt on the Horseman could exceed the coverage of many lenses. (See page 43.)

So, if one only looks at front rise and shift, the VH has 30mm shift from center each way and 28mm rise.

One can do some complex math, or just look at these circles to estimate. (page 39 of the 1988 Horseman catalog available on the internet).

View attachment 387703

Thanks for this - useful!

Topcor lenses for Horseman VH

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Topcor lenses for Horseman VH

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