Tool of the Devil, or Useful Darkroom Implement?

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Is this the tool of the Devil?

  • Definitely the tool of the Devil

    Votes: 45 84.9%
  • Something I use occasionally

    Votes: 6 11.3%
  • Something I use every time I develop film

    Votes: 2 3.8%

  • Total voters
    53

eli griggs

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No - they are specific mixtures of chemicals.
"Chemistry" is the study of chemicals.

No, as has been pointed out before, mostly photographers use the word "chemistry" to describe their developers and fixes, etc.

Just using a typical printed dictionary definition doesn't cut it, because, dictionaries are always behind the colloquial usage of the words within a community, culture or field, ie. Photographers.

The materials of Coffee, wine, and sea waters contain chemicals, true enough, but the usage of such chemicals in darkroom photography requires study, experimentation, actual usage, and then more study, including, the 'tweeking' of all possible darkroom chemistries, which photographers know contain chemicals .
 
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SodaAnt

SodaAnt

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No, as has been pointed out before, mostly photographers use the word "chemistry" to describe their developers and fixes, etc.

Just using a typical printed dictionary definition doesn't cut it, because, dictionaries are always behind the colloquial usage of the words within a community, culture or field, ie. Photographers.

The materials of Coffee, wine, and sea waters contain chemicals, true enough, but the usage of such chemicals in darkroom photography requires study, experimentation, actual usage, and then more study, including, the 'tweeking' of all possible darkroom chemistries, which photographers know contain chemicals .

As I mentioned in a previous post, photographers are the only group that uses the word “chemistry” in this way that I’m aware of, and I was in the chemical industry for years before switching to electronics.
 

MattKing

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As I mentioned in a previous post, photographers are the only group that uses the word “chemistry” in this way that I’m aware of, and I was in the chemical industry for years before switching to electronics.

And I can assure you, that in the world of commercial labs, most people used "chemicals", not "chemistry".
Although "chemistry" was probably used in reference to process monitoring.
 

halfaman

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A squeegee is an implement of impatience, as if you let film dry naturally over 24 hours there is no problem.

Squeezing does not accelerate much drying in my experience but prevents stains. I started using the squeege in color films because Tetenal Colortec stabilizer and final rinse left stains otherwise, even using distilled water. Not a single scratch or stain since I use it, 13 years and counting.
 

Mr Bill

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I can probably add a little to the, uh, discussion. Having had some substantial experience in various aspects of processing.

First, in case this is all one reads... IF your water contains ANY hard particulate matter, DO NOT try using a squeegee. Once you get such a particle caught under the edge of a rubber squeegee there is a good possibility you will get either a scratch or at least an indentation.

Back to squeegees in general... in high volume commercial processing these are almost a necessity, in multiple places. For effluent control ("pollution") if nothing else. Additionally they can reduce total chemical waste quite a bit - this is via the efficient use of "replenished" chemicals. The way this works is, loosely, when wet film comes out of one bath and into the next it slightly dilutes that next bath. Said bath, therefore, without squeegees, needs higher replenishment rates to stay at the desired concentration, which in turn means more total chemical waste. And if one collects the excess volume of certain baths, in order to "regenerate" them, it's better that they are not overly diluted. (Note: to regenerate a "waste solution" means means to restore chemical concentrations back to aim spec so it can become a replenisher again.)

Additionally such processing occurs at a certain machine speed which means that the film must be fully dried by that time (so it can be rolled up). So there is a fine balance between the temperature and humidity in the processing machine's drying cabinet. As well as some predetermined "moisture load" in the film itself, generally based on squeegee'd film. If one does not squeegee the film there will also be droplets or runs of water in the dryer, most likely leaving differential drying marks, and in a worst case some still-wet portions of film wound up onto a roll.

So to repeat, multiple squeegees are near essential in high volume processing.

Now, my personal experience has been MAINLY with cine processors running primarily the slow-speed Kodak professional portrait/wedding films of the day. Both 70mm and 35mm film, running several miles of the latter each day. (I didn't run the processors; I was primarily a QC guy with oversight over the so-called "process control" and other aspects of film quality, working closely with both the machine operators and tech services, who performed all of the maintenance. ) I also personally designed the "effluent-control" strategies we used. So for a C-41 cine machine we used squeegees after: developer, bleach, the water bath preceeding fixer, after the first fix tank (fix-1), after fix-2, after fix-3 (I wanted to use a 4th fix stage, but the machine's frame did not have enough room; consequently I spec'd a higher replenishment rate to compensate). And finally, a "squeegee" immediately prior to the dryer; I use parentheses cuz it's not a conventional style squeegee. (I'll explain later if anyone is interested.)

So the obvious question people here might ask, how often did we get scratched film? Well, essentially close to never. As a wild guess I'd say perhaps once or twice a year we might have gotten a short run of a minor "pressure mark."

Next question, how? I'd say a handful of reasons. First is filtration of incoming water, as well as same in recirculation systems of all chemical tanks. Second skilled and motivated machine operators; they watch everything in the machine, particularly for scratches (these cine machines have open tops so can see film over the tank crossovers on the "light side"), and when it gets leadered down they scrupulously rinse down all parts above solution level and inspect squeegees. They do the same before machine start-up, etc. Next, a good squeegee design, probably unknown to most of the users here. As I recall these came out about 1980ish, called delta-something squeegees. Essentially they used molded "rubber" blades on the end of a thin fiberglass/epoxy(?) strip, perhaps 2 or 3 inches long (and as wide as the film, plus a bit). The fiberglass strips act as springs lightly pressing the "rubber" wipers together. The shape of the wipers allows splices, or whatever, to easily pass through, only rarely needing readjustment. Etc., etc. (As a note I know that at least one one photrio user has a copy of the first SPSE Handbook (1973?); this squeegee style is not in that edition, but IS in the1997 IS&T edition.) Next, these Kodak films are especially rugged in this respect; it's part of the film design. And finally, before machine start-up each morning, a nominal 20 foot "scratch test" was run (along with a control strip). This was carefully examined (for 3 or 4 minutes) by both transmitted and specular reflected light for any sign of defects. Only after this (and the control strip) were cleared would the cine machine start running production film. So one might say that management support was clearly behind these quality efforts. I should probably mention that each week all machine racks were pulled and scrubbed down by the operators.

As a sort of conclusion I'd say there are several tiers of "how finicky" (I didn't wanna say anal) one gets about processing. Ranging loosely from a casual "it's plenty good enough" hobbyist approach up to a high-quality high volume pro lab (if such even exists anymore). In the first case I'd hesitate to recommend using a squeegee. Better to get potential drying marks than possible scratches. Although it IS possible that the water is clean enough (free of hard particulate matter), and they are careful enough with the squeegee to get good results. Something of a crap shoot perhaps. On the opposite end squeegees were, at one time, virtually required. In between, use of a squeegee strips surface water, mostly preventing differential drying marks, but it may take a certain "professional" approach to avoid scratches.

I'm thinking that the person taking this so-called professional approach does things in a certain careful way that they sorta presume everyone else also does. (After all these things seem obvious, right?) But the thing is, this "professional" approach is probably the cumulative result of years of experience. They may have learned, for example, that when maintenance work is done on their hot water system that some hard water deposits (scale) may break free in the line, and some may pile up around a water filter. So when that filter is next changed some of the particulate may accidentally get past the filter seat. Ultimately maybe some slight film scratches could occur. The sorta professional approach I'm talking about would be to say, oh, I'd better flush that line out for a couple of minutes "just in case," and then change the filter and flush it a little more. But not everyone is gonna think that is an obvious thing to do.
 

VinceInMT

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And I can assure you, that in the world of commercial labs, most people used "chemicals", not "chemistry".
Although "chemistry" was probably used in reference to process monitoring.

Pop on over to B&H and we find that the stuff we use in our darkroom processes is listed under “Chemistry.”
 

koni56

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Good morning
in france we have a machine called salad spinner i got an old one that my wife was about to throw in the trash
it is enough to block the whorl still rolled up with iron wire to turn the crank for one minute and the film comes out almost dry without drop of water
these clamps are to be banned
 

MattKing

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Pop on over to B&H and we find that the stuff we use in our darkroom processes is listed under “Chemistry.”

I know that it is widespread.
At least they don't list developers under "soup".
 
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SodaAnt

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Pop on over to B&H and we find that the stuff we use in our darkroom processes is listed under “Chemistry.”

So? The word “chemistry” is in common use that way in photography despite it being incorrect usage.
 
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SodaAnt

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Back when I had a full darkroom, I processed hundreds of rolls of 35mm (both B&W and E6) and I used a Paterson squeegee on every single one of them and never had a scratch.

I kept my darkroom scrupulously clean and kept the squeegees in ziplock bags when not in use and I checked them before use to make sure nothing was embedded in the rubber blades. I also warmed the blades in a PhotoFlo solution before use to soften and lubricate the blades. I used very light pressure—just enough to remove the bulk water—anything more than that probably has a higher chance of damaging the emulsion.

I’ve seen some pretty grungy darkrooms in my day, so I’m not surprised some people have poor results squeegeeing film.
 

VinceInMT

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So? The word “chemistry” is in common use that way in photography despite it being incorrect usage.

I don’t really care as the world is full of words used in ways outside their original intent. I am far from being a member of the grammar police.
 

Kino

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Don't even get me started on "filming" with an iphone or any digital camera. Don't care what "popular culture" says...
 
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SodaAnt

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I don’t really care as the world is full of words used in ways outside their original intent. I am far from being a member of the grammar police.

I don't really care either. It just sounds weird to me when the word is used that way.
 

foc

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Back when I had a full darkroom, I processed hundreds of rolls of 35mm (both B&W and E6) and I used a Paterson squeegee on every single one of them and never had a scratch.

I kept my darkroom scrupulously clean and kept the squeegees in ziplock bags when not in use and I checked them before use to make sure nothing was embedded in the rubber blades. I also warmed the blades in a PhotoFlo solution before use to soften and lubricate the blades. I used very light pressure—just enough to remove the bulk water—anything more than that probably has a higher chance of damaging the emulsion.

I’ve seen some pretty grungy darkrooms in my day, so I’m not surprised some people have poor results squeegeeing film.

+1
 

Sirius Glass

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I know that it is widespread.
At least they don't list developers under "soup".

Do not get me started on the sloppy language use of the words "soup" or "souping" for developing film or paper!
 

eli griggs

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One of the things to keep in mind is, with the obvious exceptions of straight Hypo (fixer) from pentahydrate (Sodium thiosulfate) and hypo clear, (sodium sulfite) and silver nitrate, the majority of darkroom formula consumables are made of a mix of chemicals, otherwise know as chemistry.

English continues to be a living language and it's easily evident that entries into a definite dictionary is often many years after the acceptance of English speakers of an expanded lexicon, including such as "Chemistry".
 
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MattKing

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One of the things to keep in mind is, with the obvious exceptions of straight Hypo (fixer) from pentahydrate (Sodium thiosulfate) and hypo clear, (sodium sulfite) and silver nitrate, the majority of darkroom formula consumables are made of a mix of chemicals, otherwise know as chemistry.

English continues to be a living language and it's easily evident that entries into a definite dictionary is often many years after the acceptance of English speakers of an expanded lexicon, including such as "Chemistry".

Using "chemistry" to refer to chemicals is the same as using "horticulture" to refer to a wheelbarrow full of soil, fertilizer, seeds and plantings :smile:.
 

Don_ih

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Using "chemistry" to refer to chemicals

You know, it may come from "chemistry set" - something you used to be able to get to give to kids for Xmas.

Strictly speaking, it doesn't make sense to use the word "chemistry" to refer to chemicals - but it does make perfect sense to refer to those chemicals in use as chemistry. "Chemistry" has long also been the word for the properties and interactions of chemicals. So, subjecting your film to chemistry is simply letting chemicals "do their thing".
 

MattKing

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You know, it may come from "chemistry set" - something you used to be able to get to give to kids for Xmas.

Strictly speaking, it doesn't make sense to use the word "chemistry" to refer to chemicals - but it does make perfect sense to refer to those chemicals in use as chemistry. "Chemistry" has long also been the word for the properties and interactions of chemicals. So, subjecting your film to chemistry is simply letting chemicals "do their thing".

Perhaps - even if the intention behind the name was to expose kids to the subject ("chemistry" = the science and study of chemicals), rather than simply supply them with things that would fizz and change colour and sometimes smell really bad.
 
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SodaAnt

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English continues to be a living language and it's easily evident that entries into a definite dictionary is often many years after the acceptance of English speakers of an expanded lexicon, including such as "Chemistry".

It's only used that way in a very restricted place: the photo industry. The much larger chemical industry does not use it in that manner.
 

MattKing

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It occurs to me that this is similar to referring to the body of work that we create (the thing or things themselves) as being our "photography", rather than as the photographs we create.
 

eli griggs

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Perhaps - even if the intention behind the name was to expose kids to the subject ("chemistry" = the science and study of chemicals), rather than simply supply them with things that would fizz and change colour and sometimes smell really bad.

The chemistry kit I asked for and was given at Christmas, when I was about about 9 years old, quite easily poisoned our dog, who licked up the swept floor after a small spill.

I'm 65 now, but I remember it held some serious chemicals, as I recall, that would be withheld today from Chemistry sets.
 
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SodaAnt

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The chemistry kit I asked for and was given at Christmas, when I was about about 9 years old, quite easily poisoned our dog, who licked up the swept floor after a small spill.

I'm 65 now, but I remember it held some serious chemicals, as I recall, that would be withheld today from Chemistry sets.

Today's sets, if you can find one at all, are mere shadows of the ones I had as a kid. Back then, the sets contained thirty or forty chemicals, many of which were toxic or flammable.

There are two reasons for this. The first is that we've become an unreasonably safety-conscious society, driven, at least in the U.S., by the litigious nature of our society. If something can cause harm, however slight, it must be banned.

The second reason is the general perception of government entities that anyone buying things like chemicals or even lab glassware is doing one of two things: setting up a drug lab, or building a bomb. Heck, after Boston, I'm surprised you can still buy a pressure cooker without a license.

Amateur chemistry used to be a thriving hobby decades ago, but now it's practically extinct due to the difficulty of obtaining materials. For an example of what it used to be like decades ago, read Uncle Tungsten: Memories of a Chemical Boyhood by Oliver Sacks.

 
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