Too much crap

[ColColt]

 

[cooltouch]

Heh! Good one, Nolan!

Most engines with timing chains have an internal auto tension adjustment to keep the amount of slack and tension at the correct level. Perhaps once the chain is really old it will need to be replaced because the tensioner will have run out of adjustment. But that's typically after many miles.

We bought a new Toyota Corolla in 1990. Put 40k on the car and all we had done to it was its warranty service. Ended up trading it in on a Ford Ranger XLT pickup about 4 years later and all it needed was tires. The most reliable car I've ever owned. That Ford pickup came in a close second, btw. After 5 years of ownership, the only thing I'd had done to it was to have a defective right front brake rotor replaced. I miss that pickup.

This reminds me -- we're coming up on a 70k mile service interval for timing belt replacement on our Volvo V90. Definitely don't want to miss this because if the belt breaks, it's disaster for the top end of that 2.9L 24v 6-cyl. Interference fit valves on those motors.

My mother recently gave me her '97 Olds Aurora with very low miles -- she's too old to drive any longer -- and from what I've read up on its 4L 32v V8, it uses timing chains and not belts. Whew. Glad of that.

 

[ColColt]

Having a timing belt/chain replaced cost a small fortune. I once had an '87 Chevy Celebrity that had neither a belt or a chain. The cam and crank gears meshed to form the timing. About 3/4 of the way to my destination on the Interstate it was like I reached up and turned the ignition off. Had a hard time stopping and steering the car. I knew I wasn't out of gas so pulled over and called AAA. I saw nothing obvious under the hood.

When they got there he asked me to raise the hood and he took the cap off where you add oil and asked me to try and crank it. When I did he told me to stop, he knew what it was...broken Cam gear which was made of some sort of fiber. The valves didn't move and it was obvious. He hauled me where I wanted to go and I called the Chevy dealer who wanted $650 to replace it as they told me they'd have to pull the engine partly. I found a place that did it for half that price and they showed me the gear once they took it off, teeth were messed up and the gear was cracked.

Way off topic but an interesting story.

 

[onre]

Most engines with timing chains have an internal auto tension adjustment to keep the amount of slack and tension at the correct level. Perhaps once the chain is really old it will need to be replaced because the tensioner will have run out of adjustment. But that's typically after many miles.

I actually had that happen with a '81 diesel Mercedes. The chain started rattling because the tensioner could no longer keep it tight. The odometer read about 740 thousand kilometers at that point - about 460k miles.

Gear-driven cams tend to have the gears made of something other than steel. A plastic called Textolite is rather common. The reason for this is reduced noise.

 

[nolanr66]

Well apparently my 2015 Forester does not have a belt after all. It has a chain and there is no scheduled maintenance for it as far as I can tell from my owners manual. Anyway I will just put that out of my mind and worry about it someday if it comes up. However I did buy a 750 Honda new in 1981 and after 40K miles the internal timing chain was slapping around horribly and the tension adjustment was maxed out. As I said earlier I just sold it rather then put money into it. I am not going to buy another motorcycle but if I did it would be a BMW with the boxer engine. However my vehicle interest is bicycles. I ride about 100miles a week and at 68y/o I can still hang in there with the young guys up to 60miles and then they walk away.

 

[Truzi]

Thankfully I have a timing chain. Yes, they can stretch, but it is far less common than with a belt, and takes longer. It is also extremely rare for one to break under normal usage.

Coincidentally, I ended up on the side of the road Monday. My steering became stiff and something lit up on the center console screen (I didn't bother to read it, I was too busy not ruining my car). When the steering stiffened, my first thought was, "which belt went... oh ya, this damn thing has only one." I tried to get as close to the next exit as possible while watching the temp gauge, but had to shut down about half a mile short. Luckily, it was only the idler pulley that went (and shredded the belt). I still had to be towed. If it had been an older car I could have swapped a few things and finished my day $538 heavier.

 

[Roger Cole]

Heh! Good one, Nolan!

Most engines with timing chains have an internal auto tension adjustment to keep the amount of slack and tension at the correct level. Perhaps once the chain is really old it will need to be replaced because the tensioner will have run out of adjustment. But that's typically after many miles.

We bought a new Toyota Corolla in 1990. Put 40k on the car and all we had done to it was its warranty service. Ended up trading it in on a Ford Ranger XLT pickup about 4 years later and all it needed was tires. The most reliable car I've ever owned.

How would you even know if it was reliable if you traded it at 40k?

Seriously, for modern cars that's barely broken in. I bought my 2003 Mazda Protege5 brand new in February 2003. Other than normal wear items (if I include a few burned out headlight bulbs as wear items) I did NOTHING but scheduled maintenance on it for over 145k miles. Then it was a single vaccum house until 175k or so when I replaced the (overdue, and actually a wear item) struts. Since then I've replaced a piece of AC tubing, the plugs (expected), plug wires/coils (expected eventually) one brake caliper and two O2 sensors. The car now has 248k miles and runs great. Amazingly, the thing is even still on the original clutch.

But I got to distrusting it for road trips at about 200k so in December, 2010 I bought a new 2011 Mazda 3. Right now it has 83k miles on it and I've done NOTHING but normal maintenance and even the only wear item so far was a new set of tires at about 75k, though I expect brakes before long. I kept my 2003 as my second car, for how much crap I can haul in the hatchback and to keep from putting so many miles on the new one. I drive about 25k a year so dividing them up keeps from wearing out the newer one so soon.

These aren't really exceptional stories. ANY modern car that needs anything but routine maintenance at less than 100k miles has fallen short. Cars last SO much longer than they used to (which is good considering what they cost now too.)

EDIT: Saw the timing belt/chain stories. The 2003 Protege5 uses a belt and I've replaced it religiously every 60k - 80k or so though I think the manual calls for 90k. It didn't cost that much the last time but the price keeps going up. It's due at 254 I think next. I've never replaced the water pump and they recommend that at the same time now so I'll probably do that too. I don't expect to get out less than a thousand on that.

The Mazda 3 uses a chain.

 

[MattKing]

EDIT: Saw the timing belt/chain stories. The 2003 Protege5 uses a belt and I've replaced it religiously every 60k - 80k or so though I think the manual calls for 90k. It didn't cost that much the last time but the price keeps going up. It's due at 254 I think next. I've never replaced the water pump and they recommend that at the same time now so I'll probably do that too. I don't expect to get out less than a thousand on that.

I agree.

Replacing the timing belt and water pump every 100,000 kilometres or so (on our two cars) is moderately expensive, but the enhanced quality of operation one gets from the belt (quieter, lighter) vs. the chain is worth the expense.

 

[frank]

205,000 kms so far on my 2010 Forester.

 

[nolanr66]

The Nikon FM2n returned from Garry's camera. The rewind flip out lever is repaired. The camera is clean 100% and it looks great. It's a good value at $63.00 including shipping.

 

[ColColt]

The only part that's ever went on the 2004 Corolla-S was the O2 sensor. They said it was most unusual at just a bit over 62,000 miles at the time and it wasn't cheap either...some $350 or more best I recall.

 

[cooltouch]

How would you even know if it was reliable if you traded it at 40k?

Seriously, for modern cars that's barely broken in. I bought my 2003 Mazda Protege5 brand new in February 2003. Other than normal wear items (if I include a few burned out headlight bulbs as wear items) I did NOTHING but scheduled maintenance on it for over 145k miles.

Well, good for you. But I can state that the car was reliable after 40k of driving it because it had absolutely no issues during that time, which amounted to about 3 years of driving. I traded it in on a Ford XLT pickup, so that's all I can report regarding my experiences with that car. I will add this comment, though. That was a popular body style, that Corolla, and I know how to tell the difference at a glance between the earlier year models and the 1990 and later models. And I still see models earlier than my old 1990 Corolla on the streets here in Houston often. So it must have been a very reliable car for it to still be around and a common sight some 27 years later.

 

[Roger Cole]

All I mean is that ANY car should go 40k without a problem. I agree that Corollas in general are very reliable. But 40k just doesn't prove anything, that's all.

 

[Alan Gales]

All I mean is that ANY car should go 40k without a problem. I agree that Corollas in general are very reliable. But 40k just doesn't prove anything, that's all.

Back in the 80's when cars were not as trouble free as today, a friend of mine and his wife bought a brand new Japanese car. He started raving about how reliable it was compared to his previous American made car which was over 10 years old with over 100,000 mile on it. I asked him how he could compare a brand new vehicle to an old worn out one. He said he guessed I was right.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

What are the main factors that have produced such increased reliability?

Electronic fuel injection may be one thing, though I'm not so sure. One of my cars has twin carburetters (each dual Dell'Orto DHLA 40) and they're reliable, but do need to be kept in tune.

Maybe the lack of a mechanical distributor (one of mine has that as well, but it's not failed).

I've never had to replace a clutch (still perfectly good after nearly 120k), nor any internals such as rings.

Basically, it seems that parts last longer: water pumps, brakes, belts, hoses, etc. Better materials being used?

I suspect part of it may be the increased expectation of reliability (initially stimulated by Japanese cars in the '70's and '80's) which has led to better, more controlled and more precise manufacturing and quality control.

 

[Truzi]

I agree on manufacturing and materials. Injection has been around at least since the 40s, and the early ones were not as reliable as today. Injection has certain advantages and certain disadvantages. For example, injection needs less maintenance than carboration, but the maintenance costs more as well. It can go longer without problems, but the problems are usually more severe.

Top dead center (TDC) is a concept that had to be mastered before Model Ts existed (even though the driver had to manually adjust spark advance).
Distributors are fairly robust - I've never had a car with a distributor forget where TDC is, and all my distributor-equipped cars were very old when I got them. If it gets so bad the car won't run, 99% of the time you've already had plenty of warning in the form poor running.
I've had crank position sensors go after 84,000 - no warning - and a crank position sensor is NOT rocket science.

 

[Alan Gales]

What are the main factors that have produced such increased reliability?

Electronic fuel injection may be one thing, though I'm not so sure. One of my cars has twin carburetters (each dual Dell'Orto DHLA 40) and they're reliable, but do need to be kept in tune.

Maybe the lack of a mechanical distributor (one of mine has that as well, but it's not failed).

I've never had to replace a clutch (still perfectly good after nearly 120k), nor any internals such as rings.

Basically, it seems that parts last longer: water pumps, brakes, belts, hoses, etc. Better materials being used?

I suspect part of it may be the increased expectation of reliability (initially stimulated by Japanese cars in the '70's and '80's) which has led to better, more controlled and more precise manufacturing and quality control.

Computers.

Fuel injection was never that great until it was computer controlled.

 

[Theo Sulphate]

Even so, how does computer controlled fuel injection translate into cars easily lasting 100k miles? There are certainly other failing components on, for example, cars of the 1970's that made them unreliable after 50k.

Yet, I believe my all-mechanical Nikon F from1970 will last for the next 100 years, but my computer-dependent D700 from 2008 will not. Granted, there are orders of magnitude more complexity in the D700. Yet, "simpler" cars don't last for long periods of time. Maybe an Austin 7.

 

[ColColt]

Distributors had caps, rotary buttons and points that needed to be replaced about every 20-30,000 miles back in the day and everyone kept at least one feeler gauge around for such purposes. some of the older cars had voltage regulators mounted on the firewall. I can't even find where my plug wires and plugs are on this Toyota Corolla. I once asked where the distributor was and they laughed at me. I rebuilt a '73 340 Cuda back in the early 80's replacing everything under the hood from a new Weiand Action Series intake to the TRW forged pistons, Cloyes timing chain, all new main and rod bearings, new cam and bearings, new Holly 600 cfm carb, Hooker Headers, etc. There was something quite magical about it all. Three months later I turned the key on and it was one of the biggest thrills I've ever had.

I can't say I got the same thrill when I drove that Corolla off the lot but the reliability has been phenomenal compared to the way it was when engine rebuilds usually came around 100K miles or so.

 

[Alan Gales]

Even so, how does computer controlled fuel injection translate into cars easily lasting 100k miles? There are certainly other failing components on, for example, cars of the 1970's that made them unreliable after 50k.

Computers and electronics make vehicles more reliable. Electronic controlled fuel injection, lack of distributor and plug wires. Engines are better designed and built today. Lubricants have gotten better.Most of them can get 200,000 miles out of the engine alone. It's just the other stuff that goes wrong after 100,000 miles and repairs are costly today. My father-in-law who is a retired mechanic (best I ever met) and service station owner recommends selling a car at 90,000 miles. You get more money for them if they have less than 100,000 miles.

 

[Alan Gales]

Distributors had caps, rotary buttons and points that needed to be replaced about every 20-30,000 miles back in the day and everyone kept at least one feeler gauge around for such purposes. some of the older cars had voltage regulators mounted on the firewall. I can't even find where my plug wires and plugs are on this Toyota Corolla. I once asked where the distributor was and they laughed at me. I rebuilt a '73 340 Cuda back in the early 80's replacing everything under the hood from a new Weiand Action Series intake to the TRW forged pistons, Cloyes timing chain, all new main and rod bearings, new cam and bearings, new Holly 600 cfm carb, Hooker Headers, etc. There was something quite magical about it all. Three months later I turned the key on and it was one of the biggest thrills I've ever had.

I can't say I got the same thrill when I drove that Corolla off the lot but the reliability has been phenomenal compared to the way it was when engine rebuilds usually came around 100K miles or so.

My first car was a 1973 Dodge Charger Sport Edition with the 340 Magnum engine. It was yellow with black stripes and power bulge in the hood. It had a factory Slapstick shifter for the automatic transmission, factory hood pins, chrome exhaust tips, Equal Traction rear end, etcetera. The cops followed me everywhere when I wasn't wrenching on the thing which was often. A good friend of mine had a 70 Challenger Convertible with a 318 motor until some idiot ran a stop sign and T-boned him. Your Cuda sounds cool!

My wife has a 2012 Corolla. It was a replacement for her 2000 Toyota Tacoma truck which was extremely reliable. I'm still driving my 2003 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon which I bought new. It's been very reliable. I have no intention of replacing it anytime soon.

 

[frank]

"Computers and electronics make vehicles more reliable."

To a point, but there is something to be said about a vehicle with points and carbs vs computers, just like a mechanical vs an electronic camera.

I'm thrilled with the ease that I can work on my older BMW airhead, while my neighbour has to take his 2015 Harley fatboy to the dealer for service. (New BMW's are the same.) Older technology may require more tinkering, but it's tinkering that one can do without needing a dealer exclusive diagnostic computer system.

 

[MattKing]

The reason that the more recent cars are more reliable than cars from the 1980s, as an example, is that the emission controls mandated changes that required a whole bunch of changes that, at least initially, were not well implemented.

The solutions used now involve a lot of electronics that generally work much better than earlier approaches, but at a definite cost with respect to user serviceability.

In our area, there are almost no independent automobile service options left. That is at least partially due to the fact that for a "garage" to have access to the necessary diagnostic systems for modern cars, they are looking at a minimum cost of at least $100,000.00 per annum to lease the equipment and keep the software up to date.

All the training programs for car technicians require excellent math and computer skills.

Almost all the service facilities require that you be either an apprentice or be trade certified as a journeyman.

The days of hanging around a garage and picking up the necessary skills are long gone.

 

[cooltouch]

I wonder if it really costs that much for an independent garage to keep its doors open. We've been taking our Volvos to independents for almost 20 years. Our current indy garage also works on Saabs and other Euro makes. I think that most of their diagnostic equipment these days consist of a good OBD-II code reader. The rest is just experience and smarts.

As for why cars last so much longer now than they used to -- well, I've often thought that it has mostly to do with manufacturing tolerances. With modern CNC controlled machines, parts can be cut to very high tolerances, thus they fit together much better. Less slop in the fit means less wear is produced. Also lubricants are much better now than they used to be, which has an effect. But it also helps to keep in mind that this longevity is nothing new with certain marques -- like Volvo and Mercedes, for example. Some people put in excess of 800k miles on their cars -- ones that were built back in the 70s and 80s -- and we're not necessarily talking about cars in which everything has been replaced over that period of time. Back when I lived in California, I knew a Volvo guy who had his own shop and he told me about customers he has who've racked up 700-800k on their cars and the engines have never had the heads off. Regular maintenance and oil changes is often key to this. I remember back in the 70s, recommended oil change intervals were 12k miles. Now it's 3k. Big difference right there.

 

[Fr. Mark]

Back on topic---after a recent move while re-starting my darkroom, I set aside a bunch of boxes of things and donated them to a photo cooperative semi-nearby. I enjoy the space that freed up and hope someone will use the stuff I rescued from the trash etc but will never use.

I'm also not so hot on 35mm as I used to be. I want larger negatives and I'm about done peering through little view finders. LF and the iPhone have spoiled me that way---they work better with the glasses I have to wear now. My next hand held camera will likely be a Rolleiflex with a waist level finder.

I'd like a 90 Superangulon for the Sinar and a 5x7 bag bellows (I may have to make that) for the Sinar. And if someone gave me 8x10 kit to add to the Sinar I'd keep that.

I'd like a go hiking LF kit---the Busch pressman D more/less fits that bill but not quite.

And, depending on how the enlarged negative thing works out maybe I need field 8x10 and 14x17 camera.

I could also use lab gear for making emulsions...

I will keep the OM1 that is my first real camera. I'll keep the Oly XA and Nikon FM and the 100+ year old half plate camera---it has holders for glass plates I hope to make. I try not to be a collector but a user. And, I try not to let the impatience to have something get in the way of having great stuff. Art is hard enough with good materials and tools.