Tons of grain - what did I do wrong??

Ok, so I developed a roll of 120mm HP5+ yesterday, in HC-110 dilution B, for 5 minutes in 20 degrees water. Agitated for 10 seconds every minute.

I will say that I made a mistake with the fixer - I diluted my fixer 1:4 forgetting that it has already been diluted!! So the negs were under-fixed.

The results were super-grain (I have attached a 100% crop). Any idea what could have caused this??

I got very similar results with old fiber paper (15 years beyond the expiration date).

Paul

Fixer had nothing to do with it. Just re-fix.

Looks like typical HC-110. Never liked the stuff. That doesn't mean others don't get good results. I'd test other developers to find the one that works for you.

Lovely image.

Pinholemaster said:

Fixer had nothing to do with it. Just re-fix.

Looks like typical HC-110. Never liked the stuff. That doesn't mean others don't get good results. I'd test other developers to find the one that works for you.

Lovely image.

Click to expand...

Typical HC-110? I don't think so. Your advice seems to be misleading.

The re-fix part is quite sound.

Fix in fresh mix and wash per usual.

When you mixed your dilution B, did you mix from concentrated stock or down from the first dilution?

It has been a long time since I've used HC-110 so I'm assuming the standard instructions still suggest mixing down from the syrup to a working dilution and then you make all your other one-shot dilutions from the working dilution.

Well - even though it's not what you want - I think the grain is really complimentary to the image! It really helps the atmosphere and 'soft light' etc... is that UNCROPPED? That would be pretty grainy for HP5 - you sure you didn't wash it in too-hot water?

Thanks for everyone's help...

I mixed the dilution from the syrup-like developer straight from the bottle. But I've always done it that way and don't recall getting such grainy results! I'll re-fix and re-wash and see whether that helps I guess.

Has your water supply changed, or changed in mineral composition? Some people say the higher the mineral content in the water the grainier the results seem to be.

[- you sure you didn't wash it in too-hot water?[/QUOTE]

My vote is also for the wash water being too warm, say 68 degrees in the fix then 80 degrees in the wash. Here in Phoenix my wash water is 90 degrees, sometime higher, a rapid change in tempature will produce grain like effects.

I would suggest near reticulation or possibly over agitation.

-Fred

You didn't say if this was the first try with this combination or your usual, so....
If it is your first go-around it may be overdevelopment- I always found that Dilution B and recommended times were waaay too strong, so I cut the amount of syrup by 20-30% [to keep the times from going too short at the "real" dilution]

Are you sure you have too much grain? If that is a crop of a small section, then at 300dpi resolutoin viewed at print size, you won't see that grain which may well have been emphasized by your scanner which are often not too clever with black and white films.

Does it look too grainy on a light box with a loupe?

I don't think it's the water, as I am very diligent about keeping it as close to 20 C as possible, even during washing. I used the exact same method to develop my HP5+ 35mm roll this morning and the grain size does not look like this.

Rob - I haven't tried to look under the loupe yet, but before I do so, I definitely will have to re-fix, as the negs definitely look quite translucent (between frames you can hardly see through the neg at all).

Thanks again for everyone's help. I will shoot another roll of HP5+ 120mm and see whether it's any better!

There is no way in hell that looks like typical HC-110, first of all. That is pure hogwash. 35mm HP5 in HC has less grain.

My first thought in any grain question, responding blindly, would be overexposure.

Second thought would be underexposure that you have "printed" up.

Third thought would be old and/or heat-damaged film.

Fourth thought would be that you somehow "shocked" your emulsion during processing. For instance, with a rapid and major temperature change.

In this case, another thought would be that it might be caused by the inadequate fixing leaving silver in the emulsion that should have been removed, thus lowering the contrast of your neg and forcing you to heavily manipulate in the computer, thus enhancing the grain. And/or, perhaps the residual silver somehow makes grain more apparent.

I would tend to go with the exposure explanation, but would have to see the neg to make sure. It looks like a thin neg that has been extremely lightened in the computer or printed way back in a darkroom.

I just read your last post about how the film is not yet clear. Well, there you go...Take care of that first, then judge. This is similar to an overexposed and extremely low-contrast neg as far as your computer knows, so everything you or your scanning software did to make the pic look somewhat "normal" just exaggerated the grain. Why didn't you just fix it again, especially since the incomplete clearing is plainly visible?

2F/2F said:

Why didn't you just fix it again, especially since the incomplete clearing is plainly visible?

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Because prior to my posting here, I didn't realize I can fix film again once it's been fixed once!

From my personal observations, I've found HC-110 to be a grainy developer. In my experience it's brought out grain in Tri-X with vigorous agitation. I got similar results with Presto dipped in HC-110, too. I haven't tried it with other films, however.

I usually dev at 24˚~26˚c

"In my experience it's brought out grain in Tri-X with vigorous agitation."

Even Perceptol will bring out grain in Pan F with vigorous agitation. I would imagine that if you are vigorously agitating your film, you are out to get grain, right?

From my personal observations, I can see not much difference between HC and ID-11...except that ID-11 keeps shorter and is not as consistent as HC, unless you use it all fairly quickly. HC has the advantage of not needing to be mixed from powder, and that it keeps forever.

In my experience, the film you use and the exposure has way more to do with grain than what developer you use. Overexposure is a sure way to get grain. I often overexpose on purpose for exactly this reason. There are exceptions at the extreme ends of the spectrum, like Perceptol and D-19...but I think film type and exposure have more to do with it than the difference between HC and ID-11.

Dilution affects grain as well. I use very weak dilutions of HC (1:63) at 75F, which should exaggerate grain, and still have no problems with grain on HP5. (This would be something like using ID-11 3:1, I guess.)

it looks like reticulation...you may think the water's fine, but what about your thermometer? At a shop I worked at, a customer was processing his film with a dial thermometer that was off by 10 degrees.

I do have to ask that same questions again:
Is that the full negative?
Does the problem persist after re-fixing?
If so, you're doing something wrong and as others have suggested it's probably reticulation, i.e. at some point you've cooked the film in overly hot water at some point.
In my mind, printing is an art, but film processing is a precise mechanical repetition of a well known procedure.

//Björn

Numerous people have suggested reticulation.

Micro reticulation is far more common than most people realise. It's not at all like classic reticulation where the emulsion swells and is damaged, and dries with a crazed pattern, it's far less obvious.

Instead micro-reticulation can occur even with quite modest differences in temperature between stages of negative processing, again its caused by the shock of warming or cooling a film emulsion but causes clumping of silver grains and appears as increased grain in the negatives/prints.

The best way to prevent it happening is keep all stages of negative processing within 1°C, even 2 or 3 degrees is enough to make a significant difference.

Ian

As mentioned by 2F above, HC110 is not at fault as it gives great results if used properly.

Make sure the dilutions are mixed correctly...

I viewed the image at 400%. If it was grain it would have looked sharper. I think it must be reticulation, but whenever I have produced reticulation it has been much clearer.

You mentioned that it's way under fixed. I would guess you're seeing the residual unfixed silver halide. You also mentioned that you can hardly see the space between the frames. Again, severe under fixing. Re fix and see what happens. Probably will look fine if you didn't fog the film because of under fixing. Could also be an over exposed neg.

I've used HC110 / Ilford HC for 33 years and used it with HP5. It's not a grainy developer if processing is right. I experience good grain with open full shadows and open highlights. I use it with 35mm to 11x14.

mystery solved I think!!! I refixed, and here is the result.

Thanks so much for everyone's responses and help!!

Excellent! A very nice shot. This thread had me worried, as I use HC110 1+63 almost exclusvely and haven't seen anything quite like that initial scan.

DaveT