Toning warm tone paper without getting too brown/sepia color

[Usagi]

I like a bit warm print tones. Especially Ilford MGWT and Foma Fomatone. The latter is really beautiful.

But how to tone warm tone papers for better archival permanence?

For example, Fomatone has really nice tonality when developed in Neutol WA, but even short toning with selenium-sulphide causes way too brown result.
Plain selenium casts towards to reddish brown and when diluted, it doesn't give much protection.

The toner that doesn't affect the nice warm tonality but increases blacks and over all feeling of brightness is what I am looking for.
For normal papers, the selenium-sulphide does that.

 

[Ian Grant]

I've been using Fomatone and KRST that's the usual recommendation for archival permanence, but warm tone papers react far to fast in Selenium Sulphide toners so they aren't particularly practical.

Ian

 

[snallan]

Are you toning with a sulphide, or a polysulphide toner, from your reference to selenium-sulphide I am thinking you are using Kodak poly-toner, or the old Agfa Viradon.

If so these are the polysulphide toners that will give good archival protection with very brief toning, but something to be aware of, is that the toning will accelerate when you move the print into the wash. This effect may be making your prints browner than you like or expect. The acceleration of toning can be prevented by using a 'stop' bath of hypo clearing agent, or sodium sulphite.

Unfortunately, warm tone papers are going to move toward warmer brown tones with selenium toner. If you want colder, stronger blacks with a warm tone paper, try partial toning with gold toner, followed by a brief toning in polysulphide. This combination may give you the stronger blacks and feeling of brightness in the highlights that you are looking for.

A caution though, if you are going to try the gold/polysulphide toning, always start with the gold toner, as following a sulphide toner with gold can give a range of reds, oranges, pinks, or salmon colours

 

[Steve Sherman]

I like a bit warm print tones. Especially Ilford MGWT and Foma Fomatone. The latter is really beautiful.

But how to tone warm tone papers for better archival permanence?

For example, Fomatone has really nice tonality when developed in Neutol WA, but even short toning with selenium-sulphide causes way too brown result.
Plain selenium casts towards to reddish brown and when diluted, it doesn't give much protection.

The toner that doesn't affect the nice warm tonality but increases blacks and over all feeling of brightness is what I am looking for.
For normal papers, the selenium-sulphide does that.

First, as archival permanence goes, any form of sepia toning is considerably more permanent than a bath of selenium only. The bleach / toning process actually converts the metal in the emulsion to another more permanent state.

Second, there are several ways to achieve colder tones with warm tone papers when sepia toning.

You can start with developing a warm tone paper in a very cold tone developer, I use a variation of Weston's Amidol formula to begin with

Before any sepia bleaching is done you can immerse the print in a very short and dilute selenium bath, I use 1:40 and tone for 20 secs. Then go about the sepia toning process to your liking, so many variables there it becomes trial and error,especially with a Thiourea based sepia toner.

Another way is to immerse the print prior to the sepia bleach bath in again a dilute bath of used alkaline developer, I have used a bath of used developer at a ratio of 10 parts water to 1 part used developer.

These last two suggestions effectively anchor the dark tones so they do not respond to the sepia bleach and resulting toner to add warmth.

As with any toning process, especially sepia, there are so many variables and different outcomes it becomes a subjective exercise that you must try for yourself.

Cheers

 

[chimneyfinder]

It may be, Usagi, that you could come at this with different paper for the look you are after, which I think would be a split tone sepia and selenium on, perhaps, Ilford Multigrade Fibre. The variables are endless, but with a combination of partial bleach, redevelopment/toner and 1:10 selenium I get warm midtones - not too strong - slightly warm, but 'clean' highlights with some excellent fairly neutral blacks. The other option would be to get your results by other means and, if in doubt, use agStab, formerly Sistan by Agfa, as the final soak.
At the end of the day, it is how the prints are kept that is possibly the greatest determining factor in stability, but that is another well aired debate.
Regards, Mark Walker.

 

[hpulley]

1+20 selenium for Ilford MGWTFB is still too warm for you?

 

[Marco B]

First, as archival permanence goes, any form of sepia toning is considerably more permanent than a bath of selenium only. The bleach / toning process actually converts the metal in the emulsion to another more permanent state.

Selenium toning does that too, it converts the silver to SilverSelenide (Ag2Se), as opposed to SilverSulphide (Ag2S) in a sepia toning bath. SilverSelenide is a pretty tough substance too, as witnessed for example by the fact that it isn't hurt by a bleach bath of a subsequent sepia toning.

Problem is, that most people from an aesthetics point of view, only like mild / short selenium tonings at higher dilution ratios. An additional issue with that is that selenium toning starts out in the shadows, only properly toning highlights when the print is almost completely toned.

These two factors make an "aesthetically" selenium toned print hardly archival in the long run.

That is why the combination toning of sepia+selenium comes in so handy. The sepia toning protects the highlights, the selenium the shadows (of course, this is a simplification, in reality, it is a mixture of both Ag2Se and Ag2S in both highlights, midtones and shadows, just with different ratios of these substances across the tonal range).

Marco

 

[Colin Corneau]

1+20 selenium for Ilford MGWTFB is still too warm for you?

This is what I was going to say -- I use Ilford's WT FB quite a lot, and this dilution has very little visual effect.
Personal opinion, of course, but I suggest this route, also.

 

[brian steinberger]

Usagi, I would try a cold tone developer and selenium tone for around 2-4 minutes at 1:9 or even 1:19 dilution of selenium. This may give you the result you're after.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

I haven't tried this myself, but you could experiment if you want:

http://stores.photoformulary.com/-strse-203/GOLD-231-TONER/Detail.bok

 

[brian steinberger]

Usagi, see my test I just did developing MGWT in Moersch Blue and toning in selenium

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

 

[2F/2F]

What about the renamed Sistan? http://www.freestylephoto.biz/9429-Compard-AG-Silver-Image-Stabilizer-125-ml-Sistan?cat_id=305

No need to change the color of your prints to increase their keeping properties.

 

[Mark Layne]

Get Tim Rudman's toning book from Silverprint UK. Check info on pre-sulphiding
Mark

 

[brian steinberger]

Get Tim Rudman's toning book from Silverprint UK. Check info on pre-sulphiding
Mark

I have done this. Even at the highest level of accelorator (Sodium Hydroxide) it will cool the sepia tone, but it is still there, certainly not neutral, but very lovely! See (there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I think this technique works better with neutral tone papers to cool them.

 

[Steve Sherman]

Selenium toning does that too, it converts the silver to SilverSelenide (Ag2Se), as opposed to SilverSulphide (Ag2S) in a sepia toning bath. SilverSelenide is a pretty tough substance too, as witnessed for example by the fact that it isn't hurt by a bleach bath of a subsequent sepia toning.


Marco

Hi Marco, Prior to reading Tim Rudman's book on toning my understanding how to archivally preserve a print was much the same as your description. Your above quote is quite accurate and is the exact reason why a brief initial bath of selenium prior to sepia bleach can preserve a more cold tone in the low values, because the silver halide has effectively been converted to silver selenide, a completely different molecular compound.

I am paraphrasing Rudman here whose book on toning has provided all of us with a wealth of possibilities and a better understanding of the toning process and how it relates to archival permanence.

Selenium toner does converts image silver to red / brown colored silver selenide, which is highly stable. According to Rudman, without a change in color there is really no added protection from a dilute bath of selenium that most printers mistakenly believe adds archival permanence to a fully processed print. Further, Rudman suggests that dilutions greater than 1:9 add more sodium Thiosulfate to the print further compounding proper removal whether by Hypo Clearing Agent or extended washing. Rudman further notes that even Gold toning is only ever so slightly more archival than Selenium as not all areas of the print are impacted.

Rudman goes on to say that sulphide toning, whether it be Sepia, Brown, Viradon or Polytoner has a broader impact on the entire print and therefore is considered more archival than selenium or gold. Rudman also indicates that without a change in color to the print there is little conversion of silver halide and therefore little archival enhancement whatsoever no matter what toning process is employed.

Lastly, Rudman suggests that photographers who wish to just slightly enhance the deep values via selenium toning should do so in conjunction with bath of Sistan which he refers to as a "stabilizer" rather than a toner and has a more overall effect on permanence.

 

[Marco B]

Your above quote is quite accurate and is the exact reason why a brief initial bath of selenium prior to sepia bleach can preserve a more cold tone in the low values, because the silver halide has effectively been converted to silver selenide, a completely different molecular compound.
...
Rudman also indicates that without a change in color to the print there is little conversion of silver halide and therefore little archival enhancement whatsoever no matter what toning process is employed.

Unless you bleach before selenium toning, which most printers don't, there isn't any silver halide (Ag+Cl- or Ag+Br-) in the print, unless you poorly fixed it. There is only elemental silver (Ag).

So, in most cases, the sentences above should read "silver" where "silver halide" is mentioned.

I am aware of the option to pre-bleach before selenium toning. I don't know the results, as I haven't tried it yet and still need to get Tim's toning book (I have his "The World of Lith Printing" book though).

However, if one decides to pre-bleach a print before selenium toning, one probably MUST tone to completion, because otherwise you will never know if all silver halide was converted to stable silver selenide, as selenium toner attacks both the silver halide, as well as the elemental silver. It will therefore probably be difficult to tell if all silver halide was safely converted to silver selenide in a partially bleached print, as there are two toning processes going on at the same time (conversion of silver halide to silver selenide, and conversion of silver to silver selenide).

This is contrary to for example a thiourea sepia toner redeveloper, that (almost) exclusively only converts the silver halide formed in the bleach bath. The only other option to full selenium toning with a pre-bleach is to sepia tone afterwards to convert any remaining silver halide not converted by the selenium toning step.

 

[Marco B]

What about the renamed Sistan? http://www.freestylephoto.biz/9429-Compard-AG-Silver-Image-Stabilizer-125-ml-Sistan?cat_id=305

No need to change the color of your prints to increase their keeping properties.

Although it does provide some initial protection against image degradation by capturing formed silver ions, once the buffer of thiocyanate runs out, there will be no protection left. In addition, although it captures silver ions and converts them to a rather stable silver thiocyanate complex (AgSCN), this last substance is colorless, meaning you will have density loss in the print.

Sistan is therefore no substitute for toning.

One research article about all this is "On black-and-white paper image-stability enhancement" by Christopher Gmuender and supervised by James M. Reilly, one of the very few real studies into permanence enhancement through toning in an accelerated test environment using a fumigation test chamber and harmful gases.

The article used to be available from the Rochester Institute of Technology (RIT) website, however seems to be (permanently?) down, although Google still references it.

Send me a PM if you are interested, and I will send it via e-mail.

Unfortunately, once you read how difficult is to set up and control a real good accelerated test environment for this kind of research, you also realize why there is so little real data and research being published on the subject. It is just daunting research...

Still, it does seem the Image Permanence Institute as part of RIT, has good modern facilities for doing this kind of research. Maybe we will see some more real research on toning and permanence being published in the future...

Another nice article is "A Guide to Fiber-Base Gelatin Silver Print Condition and Deterioration" by Gawain Weaver.

Marco

 

[Steve Sherman]

So, in most cases, the sentences above should read "silver" where "silver halide" is mentioned.

Stand corrected, my over sight

 

[Olli J]

Jukka,
I think polysulfide toner could be what you are looking for.

I have experimented with several papers and toners with different toning times. I have not tested Fomatone but other warmtone papers including Ilford WT, Adox Variotone and Forte Polywarmtone. They all shift almost immediately towards brown tones in direct selenosulfide toner or in indirect sulfide toner after even a very brief bleach. But in polysulfide toner the hue of all these warmtone papers first shifts towards colder tones before starting to warm up with longer treatment times. I think you could find a dilution and treatment time that gives you what you want. As you know, polysulfide gives better archival quality and also slightly enhances maximum blacks.

 

[Olli J]

Maybe I was not clear enough in my previous post. I did not claim, that you would get a full "archival permanence" (what ever it is) with short polysulfide toning but anyway it's better than no toning at all. If you want to stick with the warmtone paper then you have to decide what is the right balance between esthetically pleasing and archivally permanent print.

The alternative way to similar result would be, as suggested by Ian C, to take a neutral tone paper, develope it maybe with a warmtone developer and then tone to get the right hue. Toning a neutral tone paper would give a better archival permanence with only a slight tonal shift.

 

[Marco B]

Maybe I was not clear enough in my previous post. I did not claim, that you would get a full "archival permanence" (what ever it is) with short polysulfide toning but anyway it's better than no toning at all. If you want to stick with the warmtone paper then you have to decide what is the right balance between esthetically pleasing and archivally permanent print.

You phrased this nicely. This is why this thread is on the one side so interesting, on the other side probably a bit disappointing, as in the end, there may be no real solution, as strong colored toning results are for the most part inherent to warm tone papers' emulsions.

Still, seeing some of the suggestions and other thoughts being posed, is nice.

 

[hpulley]

Well, then one may ask why are you toning warmtone paper if you don't like how it tones? Tone neutral or cold paper instead perhaps?

 

[2F/2F]

I think if you don't want a color change, you should not tone. I do not like the attitude that prints must be toned to be proper archival works of art. I'd rather have my prints possibly silver out after I am dead than have them definitely be a hue I don't like when I am alive to view them. If anything, you could use Sistan. But if you process your paper cleanly, I do not imagine you having any problems with your prints in your lifetime. None of my family photos from all the way back to the teens have gone bad, and I would imagine that those are all prints from amateur photo finishing labs. There is a lot to be said for proper storage of and respect for the work, in addition to careful processing.

 

[Marco B]

Well, then one may ask why are you toning warmtone paper if you don't like how it tones? Tone neutral or cold paper instead perhaps?

I think there have been enough reasons in this thread, and in the "(there was a url link here which no longer exists)", why people in some cases want both the tonality or maybe better said dynamic / contrast range in shadows to highlights of a warmtone paper, and still wish to tone it without a big color change.

That is not to say I personally ignore cold tone papers, in fact, I can't afford the exorbitant exploded pricing of Ilford MGFB Warmtone as charged here in the Netherlands (twice that in the US!), anymore to consider it as my "base" paper. I have used it in the past, when the prices were still a bit more reasonable...

I think if you don't want a color change, you should not tone. I do not like the attitude that prints must be toned to be proper archival works of art.

You may personally think that, but that doesn't change the facts, and that is, that silver gelatine prints are relatively vulnerable to environmental factors. While you may get away with it in the country side, if you would be living in some large (mega) city with high aerial pollution rates, or just an industrial town with a lot of heavy industry, there is a chance you would see the first sings of deterioration during your life time. Question is also of course if you print for own enjoyment purely (just family picks), or for possible future generations. In the first case, your point of view might be wholly suitable.

Personally, I would phrase it:
I do not like the attitude that prints must be toned to be works of art.
But this is another discussion...

There is a lot to be said for proper storage of and respect for the work, in addition to careful processing.

True.

Marco

 

[snallan]

As an aside on the possibility of bleaching before selenium toning, one would need to use a home brewed selenium toner, as the commercial versions are formulated with ammonium thiosulphate. So you will be fixing out the print even as you try to tone it!

Unless you bleach before selenium toning, which most printers don't, there isn't any silver halide (Ag+Cl- or Ag+Br-) in the print, unless you poorly fixed it. There is only elemental silver (Ag).
...
I am aware of the option to pre-bleach before selenium toning. I don't know the results, as I haven't tried it yet and still need to get Tim's toning book (I have his "The World of Lith Printing" book though).