Toning and VanDykes and other Alt Process

[photomc]

Rather than continue to hijack scootermm (sorry Matt) thread to ask about toning VDB and other alt. process, thought I would start a new thread. With the wealth of knowledge here hoping to get a better understanding about how toning affects VDB (or other process that anyone wants to add).

Don (donbga) mentioned that you had used LiPd with Kallitypes and was wondering if you had any examples you could point to. Admittedly do no know much about Kallitypes, maybe Sandy could stop by and offer some info, but curious if the bleach back I saw with the VDB is common?

Wondering what toners others have used with different alt process? What were the results and did you like them. Anyone know of any older process that were used?

As always Thanks in Advance.

 

[Nige]

I don't know anything, but the toned cyanotypes (they end up brown) that one member of the postcard exchange has been sending are marvellous. I've done something to some of my cyanotypes that sort of bleached and browned them, but I can't remember what. It was something I got from the kitchen (draino or dishwashing powder), would need to look up my book I read it in. I did like the effect of the couple I dropped into the solution.

 

[magic823]

Done it.

12 ml of Palladium -15% solution
10 grams of Citric Acid
Distilled water to make 1000 ml.of stock solution.

Mix 1:1 for working solution. Its one shot so use as little of the stock solution as necessary.

Works for both VDB and Kallitype. I got the formula from a workshop with Sandy King.

Steve

 

[sanking]

Rather than continue to hijack scootermm (sorry Matt) thread to ask about toning VDB and other alt. process, thought I would start a new thread. With the wealth of knowledge here hoping to get a better understanding about how toning affects VDB (or other process that anyone wants to add).

Don (donbga) mentioned that you had used LiPd with Kallitypes and was wondering if you had any examples you could point to. Admittedly do no know much about Kallitypes, maybe Sandy could stop by and offer some info, but curious if the bleach back I saw with the VDB is common?

Wondering what toners others have used with different alt process? What were the results and did you like them. Anyone know of any older process that were used?

As always Thanks in Advance.

Both VDB and kallitype prints *must* be toned for archival purposes. Without toning any residual iron salts that remain in the print will react with the silver metal and cause the print to fade. This is not a possibility, it is a certainty.

VDB and kallitype prints can be toned with gold, platinum, palladium and selenium, or they can even be split-toned for very interesting color effects. The toning formulas that you will find in my article on kallitype at the unblinkingeye site can be used for VDB as well.

How does toning affect the color? Either platinum or palladium will change the native brown color of VDB to a warm black/brown. Selenium toning will leave the color more or less as is, and gold toning will turn the print a bluish/purplish black. Kallitype prints toned in either platinum or palladium will have an almost neutral tone, almost exactly like a regular platinum print, though the final color of a toned kallitype also depends somewhat on choice of developer. Gold toned kallitypes, like VDBs, also have a bluish-purplish color. Selenium toned kallitypes have a warm brown color, not unlike the native color of VDB.

Gold, platinum and palladium toning are done before fixing with both VDB and kallitype, immediately after the water developer with VDB and after the clearing bath with kallitype. Selenium toning must be done after the print is fixed and washed. In fact, many people wash and dry the print and tone with selenium a day or two later.

Toning adds great permannce to both VDB and kallitype prints. Many people have the idea that in toning the silver of VDB and kallitype prints is coated with the toning metal, but that is not the case. The silver is actually *replaced* by the toning metal, so that for all practical purposes VDB and kallitype prints toned with platinum or palladium have the same type of permanence as a regular platinum or palladium print. All of this assumes good processing of course, but you must do that with Pt./Pd. as well for image permanence.

Sandy

 

[photomc]

Both VDB and kallitype prints *must* be toned for archival purposes. Without toning any residual iron salts that remain in the print will react with the silver metal and cause the print to fade. This is not a possibility, it is a certainty.

Thought had read this, but could not find the reference, Thanks.

Toning adds great permannce to both VDB and kallitype prints. Many people have the idea that in toning the silver of VDB and kallitype prints is coated with the toning metal, but that is not the case. The silver is actually *replaced* by the toning metal, so that for all practical purposes VDB and kallitype prints toned with platinum or palladium have the same type of permanence as a regular platinum or palladium print. All of this assumes good processing of course, but you must do that with Pt./Pd. as well for image permanence.

Sandy

Thanks Sandy, that is very good information. The procedures you outlined here are the same ones I use, so at least think am on the right track. One question for you or anyone else. The toner used in citric acid, like plt/pld, will these keep or should they be made up fresh each session? The reason for the question is with KRST and silver prints you can continue to use the same toner and replinish it as needed (my take on that is when it no longer yields the expected result). Would quess with the VDB or kallitype, since the toning metal is replacing the silver, the toner would exhaust quicker and at some point there would be very little of the toner metal left in the toning solution....is this true?

Thanks again everyone..

 

[sanking]

The toner used in citric acid, like plt/pld, will these keep or should they be made up fresh each session? The reason for the question is with KRST and silver prints you can continue to use the same toner and replinish it as needed (my take on that is when it no longer yields the expected result). Would quess with the VDB or kallitype, since the toning metal is replacing the silver, the toner would exhaust quicker and at some point there would be very little of the toner metal left in the toning solution....is this true?

Thanks again everyone..

You use the gold, palladium and platinum toners (at least the ones mixed with citric acid) as one-shot and then discard. The stock solutions last indefinitely if mixed with distilled water. I have had some problems with the stock stability of the gold toner but the platinim and palladium ones last for months, maybe years.

If you use a flat bottom tray you can tone a print with a very small amount of toner. 10ml is more than enough for a 5X7 print, for example.

Sandy

 

[Dug]

I followed the earlier thread with interest. I also tested Sandy's observation about contrast control for the VDB process using Potassium Dichromate. It really doesn't make a difference from what I can tell. I placed two 4X5 negatives (same scene, same density) in the contact printing frame and exposed same amount of time at the same time. I washed one in 500ml of distilled water w/10 drops of 10% Potassium Dichromate and washed the other in a tap water bath. Both fixed in a weak fix and hypo then wash. The Potassium Dichromate one looks a tiny bit darker overall, but the relative contrast of the two are the same. It reinforces in my mind that there is a LOT of flexibility in the traditional processes and the gospel should be taken with a grain of salt(ed) paper....

 

[scootermm]

You use the gold, palladium and platinum toners (at least the ones mixed with citric acid) as one-shot and then discard. The stock solutions last indefinitely if mixed with distilled water. I have had some problems with the stock stability of the gold toner but the platinim and palladium ones last for months, maybe years.

If you use a flat bottom tray you can tone a print with a very small amount of toner. 10ml is more than enough for a 5X7 print, for example.

Sandy

always so much helpful information sandy.... wish I could return the favor some how

one question... I had about 20 prints all laid out last night at a meeting and looking at the platinum toned 7x17 I find I like it more and more... and it solves the "temporary" nature of VDB so I want to start making a habit of pt toning everytime I print a Van Dyke. my question is where do you get your flat bottom trays from? Im finding that I need too much solution in a HUGE 16x20 tray to adequately get the print cover.

like mike, thanks in advance.

 

[scootermm]

Rather than continue to hijack scootermm (sorry Matt) thread to ask about toning VDB and other alt. process, thought I would start a new thread

btw mike, I dont mind the thread hijack.... hijacks like that are wonderful

 

[magic823]

always so much helpful information sandy.... wish I could return the favor some how

one question... I had about 20 prints all laid out last night at a meeting and looking at the platinum toned 7x17 I find I like it more and more... and it solves the "temporary" nature of VDB so I want to start making a habit of pt toning everytime I print a Van Dyke. my question is where do you get your flat bottom trays from? Im finding that I need too much solution in a HUGE 16x20 tray to adequately get the print cover.

like mike, thanks in advance.

I picked up several flat-buttom trays at Glasier's in Seattle. The brand I have is Cesco-Lite.

Steve

 

[jp80874]

B&H and Calumet have these trays. They are listed as Cescolite without the hyphen.

John Powers

 

[photomc]

my question is where do you get your flat bottom trays from? Im finding that I need too much solution in a HUGE 16x20 tray to adequately get the print cover.

like mike, thanks in advance.

Matt, might consider something non-photographic to use...like a cat litter box or other source. Will keep my eyes open for alternatives and let you know what shows up...by the way another non-photographic source is here tried the link earlier and it was down for some reason. Have checked them out before, lots of cool stuff for us photographer types. All else fails you could make one out of plexiglass, custom made to fit your print size

 

[sanking]

always so much helpful information sandy.... wish I could return the favor some how

one question... I had about 20 prints all laid out last night at a meeting and looking at the platinum toned 7x17 I find I like it more and more... and it solves the "temporary" nature of VDB so I want to start making a habit of pt toning everytime I print a Van Dyke. my question is where do you get your flat bottom trays from? Im finding that I need too much solution in a HUGE 16x20 tray to adequately get the print cover.

like mike, thanks in advance.

You might take the exact measuremnts of what you need and have a look at a place like Lowes or Home Depot. Many of the plastic containers they sell could be used for this purpose.

But your idea to tone all VDB prints is a smart one. Un-toned they are just not very permanent.

Sandy

 

[cjarvis]

My experience in albumen and POP concurs with Sandy's VDB and kalli info regarding which toner to use when in the sequence. I'm cheap (read poor), so I use selenium for the most part. A moderately toned kallitype (30-45 seconds in a 1:50 solution) takes on the look of a really warm pd print with no bleaching and tonal rendition that rivals pt/pd. YMMV

 

[sanking]

My experience in albumen and POP concurs with Sandy's VDB and kalli info regarding which toner to use when in the sequence. I'm cheap (read poor), so I use selenium for the most part. A moderately toned kallitype (30-45 seconds in a 1:50 solution) takes on the look of a really warm pd print with no bleaching and tonal rendition that rivals pt/pd. YMMV

Is this a 1:50 dilution of Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner? Most of the people I know who are toning kallitypes with Rapid Selenium are using a much more dilute solution, say 1:500. I suspect that kind of solution really does give much permanence but I bet your 1:50 dilution does.

And exactly when are you toning? After final wash, or do you allow the print to dry and then tone later?

Sandy

 

[Jeremy]

Is this a 1:50 dilution of Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner? Most of the people I know who are toning kallitypes with Rapid Selenium are using a much more dilute solution, say 1:500. I suspect that kind of solution really does give much permanence but I bet your 1:50 dilution does.

And exactly when are you toning? After final wash, or do you allow the print to dry and then tone later?

Sandy

I'm curious, too, I came into a large batch of free silver nitrate and wanted to try out the kallitypes with selenium toning.

 

[scootermm]

just my two cents worth...
I havent (yet) done any kallitype printing... but in regards to VDB, overall, I dont much like the selenium toned look of a VDB print. It seems to give somewhat flatter effects to the image. sometimes almost going so much as to yellow the image more so than Id prefer. Im printing and pt toning a few 8x10 negatives from a recent visit to the Missions in San Antonio. Ill post them when/if they turn out well.

 

[scootermm]

per my statement above...
http://scootermagruder.com/temp/Acequia8x10VDBPlat.jpg

This image a slightly over printed VDB print. I would have likely removed the print at around 4mins exposure... given the normal "darkening" that so noticeably occurs with fixing and drying of a straight VDB print. Im finding that when pt toning VDB prints I need to over expose it to UV light because the toning and fixing doesnt seem to darken it as much as Im used to with straight printing.

tech details...
Cranes 90# Cover paper.
coated with 2ml of VDB solution.
exposed for 5min
washed
toned in pt toner for 10mins: 10gm Citric Acid, 10 drops of platinum solution #3 added to 1000ml of distilled water
fixed for 2mins
washed for 1hr
hung to dry

 

[cjarvis]

My 1:50 is indeed Kodak RST. I tone after fixing (and a few minute rinse) but before the final wash.